That piqued my interest as well. When he said that he realised Chibnall didn’t know for sure either it made me really enjoy the slightly rebellious idea of leaving the full nature a mystery in order to maintain the mystery. He the used something like the phrase, “Make not knowing the character’s problem,” and I think that’s a good idea.
I don’t really want this Doctor to be consumed by stories all about the mystery of her origin or nature, I want her in adventures like any other Doctor. Sure occasionally it’ll come up, it’s how we relate to this incarnation most after all, and as she’s known as the ‘Fugitive’ Doctor and is on the run that will also be a running thread, but I’m not really into it if it’s just going to be an exercise in looking for answers.
Which I don’t think it will be, to be honest.
I think it’s just going to be a new series of adventures with a new Doctor, one we’re slightly unfamiliar with at the moment. And that I am into.
I got around to The Dimension of Lost Things this morning, my review is here.
Though on my own blog, I review box-sets as package deals, so here’s the “Final Thoughts” section here as it holds some of my mixed feelings on the box-set as a whole. It may come off as rather negative, but I feel in the individual story reviews that preceed it I’ve made clear enough that I greatly enjoyed these stories.
Some thoughts on the set as a whole, with some very mild spoilers
The Fugitive Doctor Adventures is no doubt off to a strong start, effectively reintroducing Jo Martin’s Doctor, introducing a long-term rival in Cosmo and building up mysteries to explore. All three stories are winners individually, though as a whole there are a few issues. There seems to be a lack of cohesion with the Fugitive Doctor herself, her characterisation doesn’t quite feel consistent between each story (something that perhaps they’re still feeling out). Going from the first story to the third there’s also a sense of having missed something, with the Doctor now not seeming to know that what Division wants her for is secrets held in her memory or even what Division is, even though Fast Times opened with her on a Division mission. The fan brain does present a possible theory that would explain the inconsistency, running with an idea from the third story, though it doesn’t feel like something the series will explore.
As well as this her relationship with Cosmo isn’t allowed to build organically, briefly meeting her at the beginning of the set, her being absent in the second story, only for the third to treat them as though they’ve known each other a while as touched on in the story’s review. With their dynamic likely to be a key part of the ongoing series as a whole this is a bit of a disappointment. Only time will tell how things are handled from here.
Another thing that runs through the box-set is the repeated visits to Earth, a brief history of New Mexico in Fast Times, 1600s Russia in The Legend of Baba Yaga and 1920s Mount Everest in The Dimension of Lost Things, while trips through history are appreciated (and a Fugitive Doctor pure historical has to be on the wish list) it would be nice for some future episodes to keep away from the Earth entirely, especially when the series’ main conceit is that the Doctor is a fugitive trying to stay a step ahead of her pursuer.
As often gets brought up in reviews on this blog, Most Wanted does not come with any music suites, this is a shame with the latter two stories having such good soundscapes. Also conspicuous by its absence this go around is the lack of a reverse cover, usually Big Finish releases come with an alternate edit of the cover art to match the branding of the era it’s based on, but in this case the 2018 logo is nowhere to be found. The Fugitive Doctor lacks her own arrangement of the title theme as well, which may be disappointing to some after John Hurt’s War Doctor received his own though this is far from a deal breaker.
Back to some positivity, all three stories were still enjoyable on their own merits with The Legend of Baba Yaga being the standout. If you’re a fan of the Fugitive Doctor and on the fence, know that in terms of story quality you won’t be disappointed, if you’re looking for answers to the big mysteries you won’t find them here though Most Wanted builds up many of its own that will ideally be explored more deeply in future (and one particular mystery raised by the TV show is flirted with here, albeit it not definitively answered, which many fans will enjoy).
I feel like the ‘mystery’ of when this incarnation takes place is kind of overblown, when most of the evidence is pointing to her being pre-hartnell. There is a little wiggle room, and I’m fine with not having a definitive answer, but I do find the 6B Doctor theory a little silly, with the far future Doctor theory being a little more interesting. She was invented as a part of the Timeless Child arc, and I think it’s wierd to separate her from that and try and attribute her to an entirely different fan theory. I also don’t want to take anyone’s fun away! If you believe she is a 6B Doctor, go for it! Personally I just don’t see enough there to put her anywhere else other than pre-Hartnell.
Much of the same mind. I can’t help but feel a lot of the people who try to place her elsewhere do so out of a kneejerk reaction against the suggestion of pre-Hartnell Doctors. I appreciate keeping some ambiguity but every single hint points to the same place, and as you said she was tied into a story arc unambiguously about the Doctor’s life before Hartnell.
In the timeless child, we’re shown Capaldi, Smith, Tennant, etc, all going back in reverse order to Hartnell, then the timeless child, the morbius faces, and fugitive.
At the very least the grouping of Fugitive with the other pre-Hartnell doctors and separate from Capaldi-Hartnell puts her pre-hartnell to me.
Personal headcanon is that it goes Timeless → Fugitive → Morbius faces (while on the run) → captured, mindwiped, and forcibly regenerated into Hartnell
You know, one unfortunate thing I find with tv and movies is that it’s not terribly uncommon when there are plotholes and unexplained things to find out that there was an answer written that got cut. Or the other thing that happens is that revisions leave things that originally made sense no longer working as well.
Though I was thinking it’s also possible that the Morbius Doctors don’t come one after another up to Hartnell, maybe the mind bending machine was able to pull out faces through the Doctor’s assumption that he’s always been a man, because if it’s direct as Morbius Doctors - Hartnell - Capaldi, that’s 21 white male incarnations in a row, and I think for a Time Lord who can regenerate their face, 21 is quite a lot to stay on one particular skin tone, sex, and gender. I think it makes sense that that trend started with Hartnell’s Doctor and onwards because they unconsciously absorbed the societal attitudes of the time period they spent the most time in, 20th century Earth, and so their faces reflected that attitude, plus the fact that the UK is the Doctor’s home and so their regenerations reflect the majority skin tone. I think the 3rd Doctor’s exile was a big part of that. Hope this makes sense. So I think it’s possible there’s incarnations between each Morbius Doctor, and after them, so the Fugitive Doctor could be after them. There was also a shot of the Doctor and Sarah Jane inbetween Hartnell and the first Morbius Doctor, so I think that adds to that.
That’s a fair point to raise!
Personally I think the Morbius Doctors came one after each other, we don’t know much if anything about them going off their Clothes, they might have often been hiding in the Past, since some of their Clothes definitely have a Victorian look to it. Which could also explain why they are all white male-presenting Incarnations, similarly to 1-12, due to spending Time in those certain Time Periods they may unconsciously absorb that.
Now do I think, after them, we go straight to Hartnell? Who knows at this point!
I think that is really all up to debate, some who like it more straightforward can imagine the last Morbius Face being the one before the young Hartnell, one could imagine there were plenty of other Faces. Since the Show hasn’t really say anything definitive on that (unlike with Jo being Pre-Hartnell) it’s all up to the Individual’s own mind.
I do certainly think your Interpretation is a good one and one I used to explain my reasoning as well to a certain extent. (Truth be told, I think they come one after another simply because it’s easier to group them that way ).
Either way, very curious to see if we actually get something with them. I am kinda surprised there hasn’t been any Short Stories with any of those, feels like the most no-brainer medium when wanting to explore any of those Faces.
If we go back to the montage we see in Brain of Morbius the order goes straight through 3->2->1 and then Morbius Doctors. If we take that at face(no pun intended) value we can assume that they go in that order with no other incarnations in between, but where’s the fun in that? Lots of people took those faces as being Morbius for a long time, so I don’t see why we can’t interpret it as faulty in a different way, skipping over some much needed female and poc Doctors!
There is a shot of the Fourth Doctor and Sarah in-between the First Doctor and first Morbius Doctor, and so that creates a gap there for more incarnations.
I think as it only showed their faces and not the clothes that they were wearing which you can only see from BTS photos, I think that if you were to bring a Morbius Doctor to screen, you wouldn’t have to have them wearing the old fashioned clothing, and could make it more Division commander style, black Capaldi style coat, red shirt, and military boots.
Another reason I don’t think the Morbius Doctors are after the Fugitive Doctor is that, as much as I love the Doctor, I don’t think they’d be able to outrun Division for that many faces, I think it only being the Fugitive Doctor helps to convey the threat and power of Division.
I totally agree, The Fugitive Doctor could fit before, after, or in between any of the Morbius Doctors, but I think it makes the most sense for the Fugitive Doctor to be the last incarnation that worked for the Division before going on the run, with the Morbius incarnations helping to show just how long the Doctor spent working for them.
I completely agree. It’s really sad to think that the Doctor loses yet wins in a way, because while they are recaptured, mind-wiped and forced back into a child, they do unconsciously fight against Division’s control over the universe as they travel across space and time.
Something to add about Most Wanted, spoilers below.
In The Dimension of Lost Things, the person that the Fugitive Doctor fears and hates, who wiped her memories, I think makes a lot of sense to be Tecteun because in Survivors of the Flux, when Tecteun leaves the Doctor with the Ood, she says that she was the one who ordered for the Doctor’s mind-wipe.
I think it could work, it’s important to remember that Fugitive is aware that she’s the timeless child (as far as we know), or at least could have figured it out. Could easily have killed herself/forcibly regenerated every time she found a new hiding spot to keep herself more hidden (or at least given Fugitive doesn’t do that, it could be that they’re doing it as a last ditch attempt to flee because nothing else has worked before)
I think another reason that the Fugitive Doctor isn’t Post-Hartnell is because of the Flux. The mind-wipe was done to erase all knowledge of Division from the Doctor because they were a threat to it’s existence and reset them into a child so they wouldn’t know they had previous incarnations, and over 2000 years later when the Doctor rediscovered Division and their part in it, Division and Tecteun engineered the Flux to stop the Doctor from coming after and punishing them, but the Fugitive Doctor being 6B would mean that Division deliberately comprised their own existence by recruiting the Doctor again, where they could easily rediscover their forgotten past from other people who knew them and still work for Division.
There’s also the fact that in Fugitive of the Judoon, Gat tells Lee that she struggled to find where in the universe him and the Fugitive Doctor were hiding because it was a good place to hide, the far backside of a tiny galaxy. Not something she’d say if the Fugitive Doctor was after the trial in The War Games because the Time Lords became aware of the Doctor’s connection and history with the Earth in that story, and so if the Fugitive Doctor was 6B, Gat would know of that having been tasked to find and recapture her and Lee. I think the TARDIS brought the Fugitive Doctor to Earth, so that the 13th Doctor could meet one of her forgotten selves. I think you could’ve been explicit that the Fugitive Doctor is Pre-Hartnell while also retaining the mystery of her exact placement. Like for example in Fugitive of the Judoon on the TARDIS, the 13th Doctor quizzes the Fugitive Doctor about her past, bringing up previous adventures, details about her childhood like the Master, and perhaps showing the Fugitive Doctor her previous 13 faces, and the Fugitive Doctor gives contradictory answers, like saying that she’s had a lot more than 13 regenerations, and has never heard of the Master. Perhaps when the 13th Doctor asks her about her childhood, she becomes evasive due to not wanting to talk about Tecteun.
Regarding Fugitive’s placement, I view the Doctor’s life as more like the mythology of a god rather than a concrete timeline. Greek Gods in particular can have different back stories, and interpretations of their lives/appearances in scripture.
For me, her placement really doesn’t matter, and the discourse around it (targeted at people who think she isn’t The Doctor at all) is dumb, and a limiting perspective on creative liberty.
But this also means, I can enjoy any Doctor without worrying about where they fit in the lore. Maybe if Doctor Who was made by one individual, with one vision, and one story to tell, then I’d be more likely to defend an interpretation.
While the CD Extras were interesting, I really don’t like that Chibnall didn’t have any answers about the Fugitive Doctor. It makes it seem like he was making it up as he went, that he didn’t have at least some sort of plan, or at least an outline of what he wanted. I get that sometimes things will change either because of cirumstances outside of the showrunner’s control (i.e. Covid affecting Flux, actor quitting, etc) or because you change your mind or think of something better. But at least have a rough idea of what you’re trying to do. I think that’s one of my complaints about his era, that it felt like he had no plan, always felt rushed to where a lot of scripts felt like they needed another draft (which he confirmed with the Series 11 finale), or elements were just kinda forgotten (Yaz being a cop, Ryan’s dyspraxia). And unfortunately, I don’t know if Big Finish will take the Fugitive and Division and run with them and really build up the lore, or if they’ll take Chibnall’s example and just kinda tread water with them (like they did with the Ninth Doctor audios).
I may be wrong obviously but the more I think about this, the more I take this to mean that Robert Valentine misunderstood what Chibnall meant by saying, “I think.” To me it seems like Chibnall did have a plan in terms of the Fugitive Doctor’s placing (indeed a few have said that it can’t be read any other way than pre-Hartnell and I think that’s because it’s written like that with a fair bit of clarity).
By saying, “I think,” it’s just like Russell with the Time War when he made up all those names for things in it and said, “They’re yours.” Chibnall, now that he’s not in charge, is basically saying, “Speculate away, it’s yours now.” Going in with a firm set of strict parameters would, I think, negate what’s so good about this incarnation anyway so I do like that Chibnall is keen on keeping certain things vague about the Fugitive Doctor.
It’s important as well that she have a series of adventures as the Doctor first and foremost rather than exist as a plot device which, for all my defence of Chibnall and that storyline, is I think pretty much all she did on TV. So to make sure that happens I think they need to remove her from the Timeless Child arc a bit. It’s part of her DNA as a character but it isn’t the main thing.
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