She’s just turned into a Zygon like that.. just like that…??
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Oh I could never watch that 
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it’s not like, graphic, just over a toilet, but I do imagine it’d be triggering to anyone sensitive to that
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I’m confused- Was she already a zygon in human disguise or she just turned into a zygon?
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Do I need to watch this zygon thing?
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If you want a rare badge like me, yes 
Human turned into a Zygon!?
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she got sort of turned into a zygon? like she got a thing attached to her neck and then she can shapeshift, but she does also retain a weird and frankly creepy connection to her creator-zygon. I think she’s a human with zygon powers
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Oh christ I’m on the second sex scene and its…
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it’s the super trans-coded one yeah?
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You don’t NEED to…
But why not? Join the gang! For some reason it’s quite an exclusive club…
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Honestly though poor Lauren first the Cyberon incident now this cant catch a break!
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This is exactly what I was getting at, put a lot more eloquently, thank you @Meara 
@OliverGreene, I agree with a lot of your points - from a narrative perspective, I fully agree that the Doctor does have essential traits which make them the character that they are, I just don’t like the idea those traits are somehow biologically or otherwise inherent to the character from an in-universe perspective, which is what I personally think the timeless child plot implies (as outlined by Meara). Being the source of all regenerative abilities isn’t really my issue (although I do think it makes Gallifrey and the show’s fictional universe feel a lot smaller, if the Doctor has been there for its entire history), it’s the implied impact on the Doctor’s personal development and motivations. I agree it doesn’t completely take away from the agency of “our” Doctor, but it does add an extra little wrinkle when there doesn’t need to be one, IMO.
You touch on a very interesting point regarding the Doctor moniker being a big focus of the Moffat era, and as an enormous Moffat fan, I think that’s really why this bothers me so much. The idea of the Doctor as someone who started out as an ordinary person, chose to leave that life, and adopted their name as part of an active and continuing commitment to themself to always try and embody the values associated with that title, is such an immensely compelling take on the character to me that I find it difficult to see them as other than that now. That’s not to say other interpretations aren’t valid, as the programme has been going for 62 years, but for me personally I’ll always favour that take, and it’s one that I find personally more inspirational in my own life than any kind of inherent “Doctorness”.
This is just my take, and I appreciate the thought that has gone into your points as well - while the timeless child as presented on screen is unlikely to be something I’m ever really going to enjoy, I’m glad for people who do like it, and I’m always interested to hear people’s thoughts on it, as I said above! I just hope it either doesn’t come up again, or it’s presented in a much more ambiguous way in future, as I very much fall into “the Doctor’s history before leaving Gallifrey should be a mystery” camp.
Now I’m getting out of here, before I read any more about this Zygon thing… 
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Finished Season 17 today and I find it a very conflicting season, because it has one of my favourite TARDIS teams, some stellar episodes and a slowly dying spirit. The highs are City of Death but the lows are in hell.
Destiny of the Daleks - 3/10
Terry Nation really only had five scripts in him didn’t he? Baker and Ward are golden but this is an absolute drag of a story. Davros is completely unthreatening, the Movellans are rehashed Mechanoids and for some reason the Daleks are treated as plain robots, despite Nation himself writing the episode. What actually happens in this story? Name one actual plot point. I nearly fell asleep about five times watching this one.
City of Death - 10/10
I mean, come on, it’s City of Death. Baker’s best performance, Romana at her wittiest, Duggan, brilliant location filming, effortlessly fun, incredible dialogue, Duggan, maybe the best one off villain ever, some properly fantastic sci-fi ideas, charming effects, amazing comedy, Duggan. What’s not to like?
The Creature From The Pit - 7/10
People are mean to this one. Romana is horribly misused but the world building is interesting and the script is genuinely really funny (this episode contains my favourite joke in Classic Who). It’s biggest crime is pacing but a vibrant side cast and a couple excellent performances save it. Also, if I had a nickel for every time a slight reference to oral sex completely derailed the reputation of a Doctor Who story, I’d have the rest of the joke.
Nightmare of Eden - 5/10
When people say Doctor Who is just lots of running down corridors, this is probably what they’re picturing. A bizarre mix of hard crime caper and kooky comedy that was plagued by off camera issues. Baker is noticeably bored and the mystery is weak but that classic sci-fi charm that underpinned most of Bob Baker’s scripts shines through occasionally. I don’t hate this one, but only because there’s so little to actually feel strongly about. I also nearly fell asleep watching it.
The Horns of Nimon - 3/10
For a moment, I thought this would be another so bad it’s good episode, but then it got really very boring. The hamminess very quickly turns to embarrassment and it’s paired with a script that is just not very good. The characters are shallow, the dialogue’s a mess, the Nimon are an interesting idea but realised in the most pathetic way possible. The best thing in this episode is Romana’s outfit.
Shada - 8/10
The Douglas Adams script that never was. I struggle to separate this one from City of Death, but when I do, we ge a pretty damn good episode of Doctor Who, with an original villain plan and some great Time Lord lore. The final few parts really pick up, even if I don’t care for the ending, and there are some fantastic moments. Our sidecast is strong too and this has a noticeably incredible score for a classic episode (when Skagra arrives on Shada, the score becomes heavenly). My biggest issue is that this did not need to be six parts, the middle really drags. As for the animation, I don’t love it but can get by it.
Overall - 6.0/10
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Watched The Devil of Winterbourne today, surprised by how much I enjoyed it
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I really really like this one !
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And I agree with you there, of course, I adore this, it’s like the entire cornerstone of specifically the Capaldi version of The Doctor and it is such a sweet interpretation, it’s fantastic. I just don’t think TTC means there is any connection between their biology and their personality or its traits, I’ve never found one implied there either, but certainly a person’s past informs their future even (I’m assuming haha) if your mind has been wiped (and we have seen numerous examples over the years of characters who shouldn’t remember things but do, Rory for example). The Doctor we know is exactly as they always seemed, a rebel from their (adopted) planet, just in a slightly different way than we were made aware or they even knew. I don’t think this necessarily makes them a being of any great importance in their own universe/dimension either, for all we know that ability is a dime a dozen there, but enough to build a civilization around here. The one thing I will absolutely agree with is that it muddies these waters to have Jo Martin already calling herself The Doctor, it would be much cleaner if we could understand “The Doctor” as everything that the character becomes after and in response to what they were compelled to do for The Division, that they were known as something else before that. But also Jo Martin is explicitly an incarnation on the run, potentially not that long before they are caught and the mind wipe occurs, we can choose to believe that on some level that moniker already represents freedom of thought and travel, freedom from control and manipulation, in addition to everything else it comes to mean to them by Capaldi. They are not biologically a “good guy” to me, they’re just somebody who actively chooses to do the right thing. In that interpretation, the name is still a choice, still something they self-applied, and still means the same thing to them, which is all the stuff that’s important to me anyway. For me, this even makes the choice to be The Doctor more active, but I also understand wanting them to just be some very clever rando.
(So sorry to make this Timeless Child day in the forum haha, I just love thinking about this element, it really interests me!)
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Inferno (Omnibus Edit) on the S7 Collection set. I watched the full story just a few months ago, so felt like checking the alternate cut.
It’s always been a favorite, because if you’re going to go apocalyptic, let’s really go for it. And also because, as everybody knows, evil doubles are fun! It’s very weird that Liz Shaw gets the most to do when she is evil (or captured, as in Ambassadors), and I cannot stand when The Doctor says “there’s a good girl” to her.
It’s one of my favorite antagonist scientists, Stahlmann is kind of deliciously obstinate but he’s not actually evil, he’s just constitutionally unable to accept that he’s wrong, and it’s nearly fatal for everyone. The omnibus edit crunches the whole 7-parter pretty effectively down into 90 minutes, and is only missing a bit of atmosphere and background detail, it tells the main story like a pretty rollicking little sci-fi thriller and I enjoyed it (it’s missing the comedy ending though, which is a shame, I like that bit).
Maybe the only bit of story I still don’t quite understand is why the Primords go from wanting to sabotage (presumably stop) the drilling to wanting to wallow in the green ooze, or even really what they are or why they should look like woofmen, but I’m definitely glad they’re there. 4.5/5
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Let’s do it together!
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No need to apologise, it’s really interesting to read your thoughts on this 
This is a forum after all, so discussing things is what we’re all here to do!
I think the timeless child is something that still elicits strong reactions from people even five and a half years later (I know it sometimes still does from me, despite my best efforts to avoid it). Personally, I’m really glad that we can discuss it civilly and each take things from the discussion, because for a long time it really only felt like I saw people fighting over it, which made being a member of the fandom a bit exhausting for me personally. That’s one of the great things about this forum - everyone is really respectful and open to discussions, which I really appreciate.
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