Thoughts on the timeless child lore?

[JayPea]

Oh yeah no that’s fair, RTD and Moff definitely aren’t perfect, but yeah I’m definitely a lot more okay with things if it’s the doctor’s choice rather than something they don’t have control over

[BillFiler]

@JayPea

Timeless Child makes The Doctor important because of their birth, something out of their control, RTD/Moff make The Doctor important because of what they’ve done, e.g.

I see what you mean and I would agree if the very existence of the Timeless Child hadn’t been expunged/redacted by Division when the Doctor was forced back into being a child. The only person we know who even knew of the Doctor’s past was Tecteun, presumably everyone else on Gallifrey was unaware of this aspect of the Doctor’s previous existence. The way I see it everything that happened from when the 1st Doctor was a child until the Master made her aware of it still stands exactly as before with the Doctor being special due to their actions.

I think the memory aspect of the Timeless Child storyline makes it so that a new layer of “lore” is added without subtracting or removing any impact of the time in-between.
Except the Morbius Doctors who are irrefutable “canon” now

[Jane_Smee]

Hated it. Up until 13 the Doctor had always been male (including all the Morbius doctors if you want to accept the idea of pre-Hartnell doctors), but the Timeless Child was depicted as a little girl.

It should have been made explicitly clear that 13 was the first ever female Doctor by putting in a bit about the new regeneration cycles now coming with the upgrade of being able to change sex.

I did like the Fugitive Doctor but would have preferred her to have either come from an alternative timeline or from the future.

[JayPea]

@Jane_Smee

It should have been made explicitly clear that 13 was the first ever female Doctor by putting in a bit about the new regeneration cycles now coming with the upgrade of being able to change sex.

Why?

It’s been established before that time lords can change sex/gender in 11’s era, and we’ve seen it in 12’s with Missy and The General (and more in expanded material)

[st4rshiptr00per]

oh boy i just watched this one a couple days ago so i still have some strong opinions on it lol. i really dont like this twist.

the doctor has always been a unique individual, theyre a societal outcast who has, basically, a superpower compared to all other time lords, of being humane and empathetic and kind. the revival series then adds the extra element of being the Last Of The Time Lords, being almost entirely alone in the universe, which is a kind of tragedy that i think works really well for a character that is already alienated from their own kind for the way they think, and alien to the people who think like them.
i don’t understand what the Timeless Child is supposed to add to this character, and that’s a big part of the problem. hearing people talk about how chibnall didn’t really go anywhere with it in his series makes me think he wasn’t really sure either.

even more than that, the thing that bothers me the absolute MOST about this turn, is that it makes the Doctor being unique among Time Lords stop being about them choosing to stand out and be loving and emotional instead of cold and calculating like everyone else. now its like, of course they couldnt be like everyone else they were Literally An Alien. it removes agency from the character. and maybe there is a chance that being empathetic isnt natural to whatever species they are and that still was a choice that the doctor had to make, but we dont know that because we dont know anything about their species. so at this point it just seems like theyve painted the Single Act That Is Most Fundamental To Who This Character Is, the choice to not just blend in with the cynical, emotionless Time Lord norm and be something else, as a feature of the doctor being a Strange Alien Creature instead of someone who started out as part of the pack and chose to be different. i truly hate it, and i think it sucks when they do it in the books too.

[Jane_Smee]

This is a recent development towards the end of NuWho, and therefore cannot possibly be described as “established” - it is a retcon.

The point of doing it the way I suggested would not contradict any of these things but would have made it impossible for the Doctor’s past to be retconned in the way it was

[JayPea]

If you did it the way you suggested it would mean other timelords shouldn’t be able to do it, but as we’ve seen they can, it may be more recently established, but that’s still established

[Jane_Smee]

No it wouldn’t. The Master got a new regeneration cycle at the same time as the Doctor, so would have had the same “upgrade”. The General could be a much younger Timelord than either, so may have had the ability from the outset. In Classic Who, timelords did not change sex. The first mention of it in NuWho was the Corsair and it was regarded as unique.

[JayPea]

Sure they didn’t in classic who, but it’s never stated in classic who that they couldn’t

Adding in that it has to be tied to a new cycle just convolutes things imo

[jjdemu]

Remember we all have our opinions and I respect that, but I see this is going to get out of hand very quickly. So lets hug it out for now

[Jane_Smee]

No it keeps Classic Who and the established character of the Doctor safe from this type of retconning while giving NuWho the freedom to go forward.

[Allowableman2]

I don’t see the point of it

[sircarolyn]

@st4rshiptr00per

the doctor being a Strange Alien Creature instead of someone who started out as part of the pack and chose to be different. i truly hate it, and i think it sucks when they do it in the books too.

I’m far more ambivalent on the Timeless Child than many - it’s not my favourite because of the exact reasons you put forward about the Doctor being ~special~ instead of just a person who bumbles around getting into mischief, but I don’t really hate it either, especially because we really don’t have that much ‘lore’ about it as such. It’s all very open ended, and I think it would be best for it to stay that way because if anything is going to be presented as a Fact, that will just cause chaos.

That said, it is clear that Chibnall took strong influence from Lungbarrow and the whole the Doctor is the Other thing, which again, is a plot I don’t hate but don’t particularly favour either. I think I prefer the Doctor to be just a funny little guy (gender neutral) travelling around in their daft magic box, but some of the stories told creating the Doctor’s past into something more mythological have been very good, and have potential in the future to be very good.

[ItsR0b0tNinja]

OK, the discourse here is starting to get a little out of hand. Can we all please remember to keep a calm and even tone, and to respect the views of others, even if you disagree with them.

[DarthGallifrey]

Still not sure what I think about the whole Timeless Child. Like a lot of Chibnall’s ideas, it seems half-baked, not quite thought through as well as it should be. I still feel it would’ve worked better with the Master being the Timeless Child. I do think the Doctor works best when he’s (in his own words): “…an idiot, with a box and a screwdriver. Just passing through, helping out…”. I don’t mind story arcs or character arcs, but there’s also something to be said for just having fun adventures that don’t tie into anything.

[felix]

I posted this last night and didn’t look at the replies until now so I’m going to post a wall of quotes instead of making a ton of different replies. Standby.

@SheaPM

I agree with you, I think. I wish it had a bit more time in the show to really… mean much? It feels like it’s just swept under the rug a little. Who knows, maybe we get some more in the upcoming seasons but that doesn’t seem likely at this point. It feels like a major status quo change, but not one that we ever see the impact of.

I do hope we see more, but yeah, who knows? The thing I like about it is that it’s such a status quo change–I think we see the Doctor react to it a little bit in Church on Ruby Road and I hope that continues.

@quantumshade

I really like how it’s been used in RTD2 so far, Wild Blue Yonder especially.

I love WBY but I still think it would’ve been a stunning thirteen or thasmin episode…

@SweetAIBelle

I don’t think Chibnall explored it enough. I also think that being special with the power to regenerate seems like something that would have worked better with the Master, given that Delgato’s Master was on his last regeneration, and we’ve had new regeneration’s many times since then.

I’m also not the biggest fan of the Doctor being somehow the only one able to regenerate and everyone getting the ability to regenerate from them. It makes them kinda ultra special, which was already a thing that’s been going on with new Who. I prefer it when no one really knows who the Doctor is and they have to fast talk their way through things.

I think one place where I diverge really heavily from people who don’t like it is that I don’t think it makes the Doctor “special” per se–I guess I see where that comes from, but it’s so much a narrative of abuse to me that I can’t see it that way at all. The whole thing is, to the Doctor, massively traumatizing, and even if they are the source of regeneration I don’t think being medically abused and experimented on makes a person “special” in that way.

@SweetAIBelle

My biggest take would be that a lot depends on the writing and how they play things out. Good writing can make me like things that I’m not a fan of in theory, and being badly written can sabotage ideas I otherwise like!

I agree with this, though. It’s definitely another thing for the writers to play with, which I think is good in such a long-running show.

@Speechless

It was a mix of an amnesia and a chosen one narrative, two of the most clichéd plot points in script writing. Chibnall could’ve done a thousand things to make it more interesting and he just didn’t, it was so predictable and dull that all I saw was Chibnall trying to forcibly brand himself on the show.

And try as I might, looking at anything pre-Series 12, I just can not picture the character in this way because, you know, they were written completely differently.

Honestly, I agree on some level that it’s not that interesting the way Chibnall writes it, but I think for similar reasons to what I said above I don’t think it’s as tired as you describe. I also feel that it resonates a lot at points pre-s12, but you do have to already buy into it.

@BillFiler

But in the stories we have been told Chibnall has been very careful in not actually retroactively changing the stories told over the last 60 years - both in Series 12 and during Flux. Sure the memory wipe is a tried and true sci-fi trope, but it fits the narrative decisions of The Timeless Child perfectly. I find the adoption storyline presented to us really profound, and doubly so knowing that Chibnall himself is adopted.

This is pretty much where I stand–in other conversations about this I’ve seen a lot of “it changes so much!!” and it honestly really doesn’t to me. If you want to ignore it, you can ignore it–the Doctor is still all the things they’ve always been. And if you’re interested in it, you can engage with it.

@joerack

Not a big fan of it. Makes the Doctor an exceptional time lord rather than a regular one that chose to reject their ways.

I mean, as far as we know, they did reject the ways of the Time Lords without knowing they didn’t have the same origin, right?

@deltaandthebannermen

I really don’t get why some parts of fandom have doubled down on crucifying Chibnall for doing what writers, producers, script editors and showrunners have done for 60 years.

This is also very true. And like any other Doctor Who canon, again, we can literally just ignore it if we feel like it.

@Jane_Smee

Hated it. Up until 13 the Doctor had always been male (including all the Morbius doctors if you want to accept the idea of pre-Hartnell doctors), but the Timeless Child was depicted as a little girl.

It should have been made explicitly clear that 13 was the first ever female Doctor by putting in a bit about the new regeneration cycles now coming with the upgrade of being able to change sex.

Wait, what’s the problem with establishing that the Doctor has been a woman/girl before?

@DarthGallifrey

I do think the Doctor works best when he’s (in his own words): “…an idiot, with a box and a screwdriver. Just passing through, helping out…”. I don’t mind story arcs or character arcs, but there’s also something to be said for just having fun adventures that don’t tie into anything.

Honestly I think Chibnall tried way too hard to make big story arcs when he very much could’ve just not… although I guess his season of standalones wasn’t that interesting either.

[felix]

I ask this very genuinely, but can I ask what about the conversation here didn’t seem calm, even, or respectful? I know I opened with a controversial question, and one I and many others have strong feelings about, but the discussion up to this message doesn’t read as particularly heated to me, and because I don’t read it as heated and because I can see myself enjoying a similar debate I am worried about my own conversation style being seen as hostile.

[felix]

The concept of a “canon” only really holds true when there’s one copyright holder who gets to decide what is or isn’t part of the source text/material. Otherwise it’s essentially a mythos. Doctor Who technically has people who get to decide what is/isn’t “canon” but it’s not very centralized, which pushes it a little closer to mythos.

[st4rshiptr00per]

even though i dont like the basic idea i am so interested in knowing what RTD is going to do with this. i feel like he’s been passed a lot of interesting new stuff here, similar to the transition to Moffat’s era with all the fresh RTD revival stuff…

[sircarolyn]

@felix

I don’t think it makes the Doctor “special” per se–I guess I see where that comes from, but it’s so much a narrative of abuse to me that I can’t see it that way at all. The whole thing is, to the Doctor, massively traumatizing, and even if they are the source of regeneration I don’t think being medically abused and experimented on makes a person “special” in that way.

Yes, this completely! As I say, the TC thing I could take or leave, but knowing that Chibnall wanted to tell an adoption story because it was personal to him heightens the whole thing to me. And seeing the Doctor become who they are despite a childhood of abuse, well - I think that’s a story worth telling. I think, with careful handling, that trauma is something that could be unpacked into a really interesting, compelling thing