It’s my dream to have a proper multi-Doctor story, with Six and Peri and Thirteen and Yaz.
Hopefully Big Finish will be aware of the potential this combination has because it could be an amazing audio
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I’d love it even more if Rayner wrote it.
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I love it, aside from the suspenders. Suspenders are just a no from me unless it’s a businessperson getup. I wish they’d pushed her hair back more to show her earrings, which I think are really cool.
Babs Tarr vision activated! 
Paging @flora_snow00
Or… or Juno Dawson?
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I could never say no to more Dawson-penned Thirteen!
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I’m not familiar with that author except for TISC so I have no opinion. I like Rayner’s stories because they don’t take themselves too seriously, but they’re not wildly over the top with comedy either.
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I love everything about it: the coat, the suspenders, the jacket, the shirt (I used to own the navy variation of it), etc. It actually looks comfortable, unlike most Doctor’s main outfits.
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Due credit - that’s a well written review which made me think about why I love this story so much.
That said, I think some of my counterpoints are going to boil down to me just liking what you didn’t like because I don’t think there is anything inherently wrong story-wise with the things you point out or that, in the grand scheme of things, don’t bother me enough to knock points off. And I think that’s key - we all have stories we enjoy more than other people. Something about a particular story just hits our buttons or we ‘vibe’ with it and, because of that we are likely to look past any shortcomings in a way that we won’t in a story which hasn’t grabbed us on a base level in the first place.
Also, I will say I didn’t love this irredeemably on first watch - it was at 4/5 I liked it, sure, but it was only on a recent rewatch where I instantly whacked it up to 5/5. It actually made me cry. Doctor Who never makes me cry. Something just worked.
So, to your points:
Yaz’s Nan.
You seem quite down on the dynamic between Yaz and her Nani. It wasn’t something that struck me. Indeed, in my review, I praised the believable family relationships. Nani is clearly a force to be reckoned with judging by the way she speaks to everyone. I do see your point about Yaz sort of disrespecting her Nani’s wishes but I think I read it as Nani seeing that Yaz had learnt that it didn’t matter what had happened to the watch because it was the life she had in Sheffield with Yaz’s mum and her grandchildren that was the most important part of her life. We know Yaz knows more but I feel that is for us to see that Yaz has a better understanding of her Nani but it isn’t something either of them need to share. Yaz and Nani both know the truth but it doesn’t matter in the now. It’s almost a foreshadow of the Doctor and the watch and the Timeless Child. Her past doesn’t define who she is now. Nani’s past doesn’t define who she is now. Her Sheffield family do.
I can totally see how you can read it as Yaz immaturely saying ‘sod this, I’m going to hop in my friend’s time machine and find out the truth’; but I’m more inclined to read it as 'maybe some things are best left in the past - it’s not as if Yaz found out anything particularly nice but she did gain a better understanding not just of her Nani’s history but of her culture as well.
The Thijarians and prejudice:
Again, I can completely see your take on this but I think this is something already coded into the show right back to the classic era. Yes, the Doctor is prejudiced toward the Thijarians and no, she clearly doesn’t learn. But did the Third Doctor learn from his mistaken prejudice towards the Ice Warriors in The Curse of Peladon; or his misjudgement of Lytton in Attack of the Cybermen? The Doctor likes to act as if they are open to all and non-judgemental but, actually, they make the same mistakes as anyone and who can blame them - they spend their life fighting against monsters doing the most horrific things. I’m not surprised they go for ‘expect the worst, hope for the best’.
I do agree about your comment about this just being an entire race flip flopping from bad to good which maybe doesn’t quite work as well as it could but I would also argue that Doctor Who has often included alien races where the entire culture has changed (more often than not they are long dead races where the Doctor or whoever is discovering their ancient remains and ruins and artefacts, but still).
There’s no suggestion that this was overnight either. We are just seeing this race at end result of their culture’s epiphany. Why doesn’t the Doctor know? Because the Doctor doesn’t know everything. Again, they like to act like they know the history and future of every race in existence but obviously they don’t because then there’d never be any mysteries in the show. The Doctor knows what they need to know when they need to know it for the plot and doesn’t know what they should know when the story demands they are in the dark. For this story, the Doctor can’t know about their about face. And that’s okay within the parameters of this story just as it’s okay for the Doctor to know all about a different alien race in another story if the narrative beats require it. That’s just storytelling.
Does the rest of the story cloud their motivations as you suggest? I disagree with this. The Thijarians aren’t being vague and menacing for the purposes of throwing the audience off the truth; they are vague and menacing because they are a race who as ascended above the motivations, morals and emotions of the mortals they watch over. They are presented as overseers. They don’t need to explain themselves to anyone. They don’t need anyone’s acceptance. They just don’t care. They have one purpose and one alone. It’s a bit odd admittedly but that’s what makes them so alien and so effective. These are aliens who are different because they work to a different code to the rest of the species they encounter. They have ‘bettered themselves’. And yes they do threaten the Doctor but that is because they have, as I say, a higher purpose.. They’re not assassins any more - there isn’t a statement that they have renounced violence though. Obviously within their alien moral code if someone or something stands in the way of their higher purpose they believe they are in their rights to dispose of that problem or threat.
You call it ‘bad writing’ but when I reviewed this aspect I commented on how I thought the truth was carefully revealed at just the right point. It can’t be ‘bad writing’ if it worked for me. It’s just not writing that fits with how you think a story should unfold; whereas it does for me. This is why accusations of ‘bad writing’ directed at any writer are, to my mind, nonsensical, because good writing is subjective. People seem to love some writing that I find self-indulgent or needlessly complex or downright condescending. I’d call ‘Year of the Pig’, for example, extremely ‘bad writing’ - long sequences which are just lists of food; random events happening left, right and centre - and yet others seem to love it to pieces because, for them, it just works.
I think our difference of opinion on the depiction of the Thijarians is just that. For me, it works within this story. (But then, I also think The Web Planet is poetic, so what the ■■■■ do I know).
Is the lack of gunshot wound on the priest a bit of an oversight, script-wise? Absolutely. It doesn’t really make sense someone wouldn’t notice a whacking great gunshot wound, but that’s one of those little niggles which I can overlook because, if I’m honest, I’d not noticed that until you pointed it out.
And I can’t disagree about the ‘three companions stand around and say the odd line’ criticism of any of Chibnall’s writing but I still enjoy their interactions and the scenes at the ‘stag and hen’ does are fun.
But the wedding scene is beautiful - one of Jodie’s best (I really must quote that ‘faith’ speech) and Prem facing up to his brother and the men is truly tense and tragic. The Doctor and fam running away, utterly helpless to do anything else is heartbreaking.
As I said in my review, I see this as modern Who’s version of The Massacre - the Doctor and companions facing the inevitability of history and the horrors that humans alone can perpetuate.
The cast are note perfect, in my opinion, and the entire thing looks gorgeous (a strength of Chibnall’s era - I’d even go as far as to say I think it looked better than the current era).
I don’t think my points will convince you otherwise but this is completely how I see this story. As much as you adore Heaven Sent and I just can’t muster much beyond a 3/5, I think we’re destined to always disagree on this one.
(But my favourite story is Delta and the Bannermen so what the ■■■■ do I know).
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Same. In retrospect, they should have had him killed with a blunt instrument or by strangulation. Which would have been even more macabre than a gunshot, but would have been attributable to the Thijarians.
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Anyone else think of Grace when they see this thread title, not 13?
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To be fair, I wasn’t 100% on the title for that exact reason
If people have other suggestions, I’m all ears!
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Ern hello
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I think that I agree with both of you on many of your points, and it is much down to perspective and what you like and don’t like.
On my first watch, I thought that this was really good, but with every watch, I feel like I lower its rating. I think that I overrated it at first because it is one of the better episodes of the season and shines in comparison, but it is a season that is not for me, so that doesn’t say that much and even if this is one of the better episodes I don’t rate it that high.
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“When people need help, I never refuse”
“Sorting out fair play throughout the universe”
“Flat team structure”
And I’ve got more! So much more!
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Some are a bit too long but I like Flat team structure 
Because her speech about the team structure being mountainous was one of my favourite Thirteenth Doctor moments!
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Some short ones harvested from her quotes on the guide:
- “Is anyone excited?”
- “I am REALLY smart”
- “We’re friends now”
- “Come on, fam”
- “Mostly hope”
- “I’ve had an upgrade”
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Oooo I like that one
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And both of you are guilty of Arabella Weir erasure.
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Like the new topic name - taken from a great speech!
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Big Finish have only themselves to blame that everyone wants to forget Arabella Weir…
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Not me. I’m still annoyed the other Unbound Doctors don’t show up elsewhere when applicable (Other as in the ones that aren’t David Warner’s Doctor.)