"Give me the loving!"

Help!

Without mentioning Bernard Cribbins (who really is the highlight of that two-parter) help me understand how both “The End of Time” episodes have got a rating of 4/5 :star: ?

I love the post-regeneration scene with Matt Smith but what else do fans love about this story? I could put in a couple of choice expletives here and talk about how and why this is my least favourite story of all time, but I think I’ll refrain from being too negative… It’s just that I find nothing in this story of any kind of interest.

If it wasn’t a regeneration story it would be easy to just skip it but as it stands it is kind of difficult to ignore when it holds such a pivotal place in this fantastic show’s continuity

I genuinely mean no disrespect to fans who love 10’s swansong (Oodsong?), not looking to be controversial for the sake of it.
Keep loving what you love by all means!
But to be frank, these two episodes are the only Doctor Who TV stories I’ve rated 0,5/5 :star:

Help me understand the loving!

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I just think its good I like the stakes feel high with the buildup of all the mentions of the Time Lords up to this point, I started watching as a kid in 2005 so I hadn’t seen the other Time Lords besides the Master before, it was exciting to see him back and to see the Doctor immediate dropping parts of this incarnations moral code once he realised what was happening. I appreciate its not for everyone but I do think ten’s angst is a core part of his incarnation and its really at its peak here, I’d say its probably the biggest difference between Ten and Fourteen in fact though thats getting off topic.

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Who knows… I don’t hate this two-parter but I wouldn’t go out of my way to watch it. In fact, I barely think about it at all. It’s like, fine. I don’t hate it or like it.

For me, it’s just everything that’s annoying about an RTD episode - it’s full of bombastic, end of the world nonsense (yeah, Moffat’s not the only one who does that) and feels smug to the point of not being fun. It’s drawn out and acts like DT is the greatest gift to the Whoniverse ever.

I wouldn’t say I hate it, and I don’t not enjoy it if I watch it, but it’s very, very far from an episode I do care about in any way, positive or negative

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Yup I do not appreciate the severity of the angsty nature of the 10th Doctor. And the play on this Doctor’s moral superiority complex was not something I enjoyed. And I really didn’t like what they did with the Time Lords in this… :grin:

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Hate is too strong an emotion for me to use about a television programme, it just bugs me and I want to see what others see than I don’t.
That’s the problem, I’m looking for the positives and find a huge gaping chasm.

That sums up my feelings towards RTD’s finales (less so Bad Wolf/Parting of the Ways) really well actually :+1:

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I really like the episodes.

Yes they have their flaws. But I will never stop loving Cribbins being a companion, the Doctor’s angst and everything catching up with him in the most terrible way, the return of the Time Lords (this was the first I’d seen of them at the time, as I hadn’t seen Classic, and I found all the talk of the Time War to be an epic payoff for the previous 4 series), the explanation for why The Master has had problems all this time (and I love that Moffat carried this on, to have Missy finally want to be good, probably because the drumming is gone - that’s why I dislike the Spy Master as it goes back to default) and of course the way the Doctor dies - not in a big battle but by a simple choice, to save his friend (and newfound father figure), and he finally realises that the Doctor’s life isn’t more important than anyone else’s. “Lived too long”.

Then the tour of all the past companions - that was so over the top but it really affected me at the time.

I think it was just a really big send off for both David and RTD, so if you were invested in them (and I was, 100%), then it’s like a reward. He even calls it getting his reward.

Does that help? :sweat_smile:

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I love em both cause I love 10, tbh. Its a climatic and emotionally satisfying conclusion to his arc from both the specials and his entire tenure that’s only improved with time - in retrospect, his angstiness and comparisons of regeneration to death make more sense when you remember that the doctor really did think they only had one regeneration left at the time.

I can definitely see why people who are less attatched to 10 would find it obnoxious but for all its melodrama i wouldn’t have it any other way

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I am so tempted to go old Luke Skywalker on this: “Amazing. Every single word you just said was wrong” :wink:

Cribbins is amazing, man that man can act with his face and with a catch in his throat!
The whole thing with the Master and the drumming was really confusing, as he received it as a child are we then to assume he has had it through all his incarnations? That is nonsensical, and I like a bit of nonsense in Who, but to suggest that Delgado, Ainsley, Roberts and any and all other incarnations were “evil” because of drumming in the head is a degree of nonsense I just don’t subscribe to.

The the tour of past companions as you call it…
Gloves off?
It was self-indulgent nostalgia baiting, the very worst of fan service I can imagine basically. We have had so many incarnations of the Doctor, we know it will continue - so why this farewell tour? Celebrate change, set up excitement for the future and stop doing what is bound to drive a wedge in fandom - it is a set up for an “us and them” divide. Pass the baton on with a bang not a whimper. You do not deserve a reward on these merits.

I suppose it helps a bit to put these thoughts in writing. :wink:

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That’s definitely fair. For me everything about this story just devolves with each viewing. :slightly_smiling_face:

Expanded media does have the War Master initially being a child so you could squint a little and say thats what it meant, but I think its just meant to be retroactive in universe as well as outside of it.

And I haven’t even mentioned the part where a blond, white man goes “There is only the Master race”.
Now I enjoy a pun as much as the next person, possibly more sometimes, but was there really noone on staff who could point out that that is a severely bad joke. I don’t see myself as being that easily offended by what is clearly meant to be a joke - dark humour can be very enjoyable.
Yes The Master is “evil” and would probably make that joke, but it is very unnecessary to actually show that onscreen.
Boy I am putting myself in a tizzy here :grin:

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I could just handwave it away of course. But how would that work with the War Master? Is he then meant to be the first incarnation? The original you might say?

This is exactly what is frustrating me about the new series, and the 60th specials. It feels like old Rusty going ‘hehe look my series was the best!’ and sort of giving a token nod to some other eras but without any real heart. I love Ten (‘‘Fourteen’’) and Donna as much as anyone, but the fact we’re going to be plagued with them in the future series for the rest of time, on top of the fact that RTD is writing almost everything… yeah. Does not fill me with joy

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I can see we are two peas in a pod here :grin:
I hope that I love the upcoming series, the trailers certainly look amazing.
But with the 4 specials last year and the coming 8 episode series we will have 10 put of 12 new episodes by RTD.

I don’t particularly like the idea that the 14th Doctor could pop up anytime, sometimes it’s okay to have a chapter of a story end - sometimes you have to read the last page.

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For sure, the new series looks exciting and I am sure I will enjoy it, just as I enjoyed the specials well enough - that and Ncuti is already fabulous. but 10/12 by RTD and 1 by Moffat isn’t exactly following in the spirit of DW being about change :confused:

And yes, I hate the idea of 14 being everywhere, it really to me feels like we’re putting DT on a pedestal. At this point I’m dreading the 14 and Donna spinoff, mostly due to how I know that certain portion of the fandom who act like RTD1 was the most sacred era ever will act :roll_eyes:

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Honestly, for the Master as a character, it makes sense. My issue with Russell was the fact that for almost no reason at all apart from shorthanding him as a baddie, he made The Toymaker deliver a veiled racist insult at the start of The Giggle. Like, absolutely no reason for it except to point and go “hey look, aren’t racists jolly bad?” Same thing with Kate Stewart doing ableism as soon as she’s been mind-controlled. This is two sides of the same coin, really - Russell seems to want to just be able to shorthand good characters with social/identity traits without bothering to do much exploration of the character (seriously, what about Ruth Madeley as a character made her good disability rep? The rockets in her wheelchair or her bringing up in literally every scene that she couldn’t climb stairs?) while at the same time, wanting to examine racism and other pretty big topics without investigating how and why these things exist. It happens basically any time Doccy Who tries to make a space-racism allegory because those never actually work, (we don’t talk about ROSA) but with Russell’s big push at a more inclusive Doctor Who, it’s hard not to feel like he’s talking out of both sides of his mouth.

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So much for refraining to be too negative :sweat_smile:

Think I’ll agree to disagree and leave it there, in the spirit of trying to stay positive.

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Sorry, having a five year old imitate a Chimeron princess repeatedly for roughly 5 hours is apparently making my opinions somewhat spicy. I hope it doesn’t come of as patronising.

I can definitely agree to disagree in good spirits :blush:

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I will say all my ire is retroactive at things that have already been done, and it’s always written in the pipe-dream hope that Russell will see it and go “Oh my god I’ve been wrong all this time!” because I am a silly arrogant boy. Also I think the breadth of critical analysis on Doctor Who that exists has crept into my brain somewhat, so I’m blaming Tat Wood and Laurence Miles entirely for my attitude.

I’ve given myself the challenge of only trying to say good things about the new eps going forward, and the trailers do look fantastic!

I’m also gonna try and turn this into positive by saying Stolen Earth/Journey’s End is a fantastic finale where Russell absolutely gets it right so I know he can do it. I also truly believe that he has nothing but love for Doctor Who in his heart, and like all the best showrunners before him, that has caused him to fumble the bag one too many times out of overwork or overenthusiasm :smiley:

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100%. I love those episodes and especially then bit where they all fly the TARDIS, that is top tier Doctor Who content for me.

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