I couldn’t bear Nightmare in Silver, and The Doctor’s Wife is really good, but it’s not ranking in my favourites. I don’t think I really get on with any of Gaiman’s writing though, I’ve tried to read his books and I think they’re just not for me
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Similar thing with The Woman Who Fell to Earth. They killed off Ryan’s grandmother (the only familial tie he was close to that we saw) in order to put the focus on his white grandfather-in-law. Ryan’s mother is also canonically dead and his father is a deadbeat. Fantastic.
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I’ve not a fan of Nightmare in Silver at all either, but apparently it got major rewites from Moffat because the beeb wanted a new cyberman design
That said ‘the line’ is still a Gaiman original
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Oh, I absolutely think “The Doctor’s Wife” works. “Nightmare in Silver” is a different matter, though. Although, wasn’t ti the case that Gaiman himself was very dissatisfied what they did with his script for that one?
I can see where you’re coming from though, @BillFiler. His scripts have a very distinctive flavour and if that isn’t to your liking then I can see that being a problem. From my point of view, I was never one of those clamouring for him to be made showrunner (as if THAT was ever a realistic prospect, anyway) and think his scripts work best as occasional. They’re different enough to stand out and do something interesting. I happen to think that his approach would get old very fast if he was ever a regular contributor. As an outlier, “The Doctor’s Wife” is (to me) a thing of beauty.
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The Doctor’s Wife is a genuinely beautiful episode me so rich with style and ideas that I just can’t help but adore it, that’s a top 10 episode for me.
Nightmare in Silver however is my least favourite episode of the revival pre-Chibnall era, so I definitely understand at least half of what you’re saying.
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I often wonder the “what we might have had” of Nightmare in Silver. There are some interesting concepts in place, but the rest (alas) just doesn’t hang together.
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It’s Neil Gaiman, so obviously there are some good ideas, but that episode’s so annoyingly twee it genuinely hurts to watch
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I love how this started as a discussion on our thoughts and reactions to Empire of Death, then descended into a Sutekh meme war, and now has completely derailed into a discussion on Neil Gaiman’s Doctor Who stories.
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Oops. Partially responsible. At least for the latter part.
Anyway, Empire of Death: Those scenes in the Government offices of 2046 were really rather haunting. Loved 'em. You can take all the crowd scenes of people screaming and running but it’s often the quiet, understanded scenes that leave the most lasting impact.
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I thought a bit about the very beginning of the episode and I kind of feel like they placed the cliffhanger between the two episodes at the wrong point.
The reveal at the end of The Legend of Ruby Sunday that it is Sutekh is really rewarding for long time fans, but probably less so for viewers not steeped in the lore.
But imagine if the cliffhanger came after Kate Stewart has been dustified, to sit with that emotional gut punch for a week. Maybe see Ncuti’s reaction as he is with Mel on the scooter and just have Mel go:
“There’s nothing we can do… Except fight!!”
BAM! Roll Credits: TO BE CONTINUED
Wouldn’t the death of our beloved Kate Stewart be more of a shock for a larger group of viewers when it comes right down to it?
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I’m not really complaining. I just find it amusing.
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And back to the memes 
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Aside from my quick post late on Saturday, it’s taken a while for me to formulate my thoughts on this episode.
I’ve never been a fan of any of the big finales save a couple because I always find the ‘world-ending, everything’s at stake, who will survive’ dynamics to be overplayed and, in the context of Who, often at mercy of the dreaded reset button (and don’t get me started on Moffat’s 'kill the companion but not really spectaculars).
When everyone started getting dusted, my wife was screaming at the TV ‘Don’t kill Kate’ and yet I felt almost nothing because I knew - knew wholeheartedly - that there was no way RTD would wipe out an entire cast of recurring characters in such a way. It robbed that moment of any drama for me because I knew in 50 minutes they’d all be back.
And then the episode kind of tread water for a long time to get to the end. I’m usually one who gets caught up in an episode and it’s only afterwards, on reflection, that I start to notice the ‘plotholes’ or ‘logic leaps’. How bothered I am by them will always depend on how much I’ve enjoyed the episode overall and the more I think about this one, the less forgiving I am.
But let’s look at the positives. I am so happy Bonnie has had the opportunity to show what a brilliant companion Mel could always have been in both the production team and fandom had given her the chance.
I did like the visuals of panic - I’m a sucker for a disaster movie and those scenes like in Independence Day when people are desperately and often fruitlessly trying to escape certain death. Mel and the Doctor on the scooter was hugely fun (although did anyone else notice the continuity error with Mel’s hair just before they got on the scooter?)
I like the idea that there was a Susan Triad everywhere the TARDIS landed - as a concept.
I didn’t mind the ‘Ruby’s mum is an ordinary person’ (my wife hated it though!) and I felt that was a natural end to her arc with wanting to stay behind and explore her ‘new’ family.
And, as I said first off, Lenny Rush shooting at a monster had ‘13 year old’s dream job’ written all over his face and I can’t take that away from him.
But…
The more I think about it, the more I don’t think much of this actually made any sense and whilst I utterly refute the accusation that this is ‘lazy writing’ on the part of RTD (I often feel that, conversely, is a bit of a ‘lazy critique’ if I’m honest) I do think he wrote himself into a corner/up a blind alley - and I do think he did plant seeds he knew he wasn’t going to deliver on in the way a lot of the audience might have been expecting - whether he did this deliberately or not I don’t know, but as experienced a writer as Russel is, I really don’t think it was because he was being lazy or worse, just not very good at writing what he did.
Death x Death = Life - this just didn’t make sense and wasn’t really explained. Just drag Sutekh through the vortex and everything resets? Why? At that point Sutekh isn’t even dead so how is his death restoring lives? And as much as I enjoyed the references to Telos and Karn and Calufrax, if we’re to believe more or less the entire universe got dusted (it’s been a loooonnnggg time since Pyramids - and even when Mel pointed out the Doctor hasn’t been everywhere, he pointed out he practically has) how was the Doctor sure he’d dragged Sutekh around long enough to restore everything.
I’ve never had a problem with fantasy being part of the show but this felt very ‘wave a magic wand and everything’s better’.
The pointing - sorry but that was just stupid. Why would a 15 year old point at a road sign to indicate what she wanted the baby called? A 15 year old would write note and put it in with the baby. Who was going to see her pointing at the sign? No one was there originally. Paradoxes and time shenanigans aside, it just didn’t make sense and, actually, none of how Ruby’s mum is portrayed in those scenes matches with the revelation that she was a 15 year old hidden pregnancy. How many 15 year olds have a mysterious hooded cloak in their wardrobes? She didn’t even carry herself like a 15 year old. This is where the writing/direction didn’t match the final reveal of the script and where RTD could legitimately be accused of a bit of a bait and switch.
And, as people have said, it should have been obvious she wasn’t pointing at the Doctor but that was partly because the shots chosen for the time window scenes were deliberately obscuring where she was pointing.
Rose Noble - pointless inclusion. Did she even have any lines this episode? The shot of her furiously tapping on a tablet whilst everyone else fired on Sutekh was unintentionally (I’m sure) hilarious.
Mrs Flood - I’m not sure I actually care who she really is because her characterisation hasn’t been consistent. Last episode it looked like she was in league with the baddie with the way Dobson played it and the way she spoke to Cherry and then suddenly this week she is all hugs and ‘clever boy’. I see another anti-climax on the horizon.
The bit with the random woman on the planet. Yes, it’s terribly sad that she had forgotten her child had died but how had she survived the dusting anyway. It didn’t look like anyone could survive it and the only reason the Doctor, Ruby and Mel had was because Sutekh wanted Ruby’s secret (would a God actually give a shit about that?) And why go there for a piece of metal. There must have a been a shedload of metal in the government offices in 2046 - or in those many many cupboards in the Memory TARDIS. I just didn’t see the point of those scenes apart from another reason to let Gatwa look sad.
Sutekh’s dusting of all the planets felt a bit too like the Flux as well - a rather nebulous, vague, all-encompassing threat that’s a bit hard to get your head around and isn’t particularly well explained on screen.
Blimey.
I actually thought I was going to come in here and accentuate the positives and challenge some of the more negative takes on the episode but actually I seem to have convinced myself that I didn’t actually like it much - as a whole. There was plenty I enjoyed and I know a rewatch without the weight of expectation is always advisable with Doctor Who - especially openers and closers where so much rests on them -but, yeah, I think I was a bit disappointed by that.
Scary Mel - though! Wow!
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Could not agree more tbh - Bonnie was STUNNING throughout, but she really was the highlight.
I’ve seen elsewhere people saying that RTD has been saying he designed this series in order to stir up internet discourse as a primary focus, and looking at it all with that in mind makes so much sense - it explains all the baiting and mystery making, but doesn’t make up for the fact that the conclusion was muddled and full of holes.
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I’ve really surprised myself. I’ve just written the sort of review which I would baulk at on other forums but something about how we’ve managed to create a balanced community where criticism is taken in the right spirit has allowed me to do this.
Once upon a time there are comments in this thread I’d have been all over with a ‘no, you’re the one with a problem, this episode was great’ reply but I haven’t felt the need to do that because we have a community that isn’t out to tear down the caslte and burn the heretics but just wants to talk about the highs and lows and that’s okay.
I look forward to revisiting this story and I’ve thoroughly enjoyed this season - for a number of reasons - the principal one being it’s the first series my daughter has sat and watched with us. And she loved it! She was so excited for each new episode and I haven’t had her share my love for the show before.
I think RTD is very clever but sometimes I think he’s a bit too clever for his own good and gets caught out by his own games.
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This is the first season I watched live while following what people on the internet were saying. I can’t imagine how disappointing this season might be for a fan who isn’t as online, how confused they might be, how little they have to go on to make some of these plotlines make sense. I’ve seen people connecting very distant dots to say “this episode is good, actually”, and I can’t help but think, “while your theories and meta do make it better, how could an average viewer come up with that?” If the episode isn’t good for those people, it’s not good, period.
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This is very true, especially your comment about fandom. Bonnie was written off and often seen as a low point, even a gimmick casting “mistake”. The only mistake was the way she was written. Criminally underused in the classic series, she’s more than made up for it in Big Finish and thoroughly deserved her opportunity to show the world what she could do. She grabbed it with both hands!
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I have to refute that by saying my wife and daughter have really enjoyed this series and my eldest, to some extent (they didn’t like the first two much and the last episode was ‘fine’ but overall they’ve enjoyed it). They were never confused - even with not knowing who Sutekh is. I do think we fail to credit the general audience (who doesn’t head straight to a forum to share their thoughts) with the ability to enjoy the show on its own terms. They don’t need to head canon it. They can just accept what’s on screen and they might actually like it - or they might not (the first bit my wife didn’t like this whole series was the reveal of Ruby’s mum - but the reunion still made her cry).
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Not sure why he didn’t go somewhere else, but as I understood it he needed metal not from the memory TARDIS, “something real”
I otherwise more or less agree though
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Yes you’re right there was the line about ‘something real’ but why go to a planet where there was hardly any metal. It didn’t look like the dust did anything except to people.
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