Why we don't get Time Lords anymore

This is mostly me just riffing, but I was wondering why we don’t get Time Lords as a civilization anymore. I mean Moffat brought them back, used them once, and then we all know what’s happened since. But any time we get singular Time Lord’s that the Doctor gods up against they’re megalomaniacal. The Master, The Rani, and whatever Omega was.

Generally the Doctor in the revival era is shown as the one good Time Lord. With Missy being sort of an exception.

Obviously when the show came back in 2005 the erasure of the Time Lords was a really good dramatic point for the Doctor and the show, but we are far beyond that necessity now and yet we keep coming back to it. And we fans are clamoring for the return of Gallifrey yet any time they’re brought up we are explicitly told they shouldn’t come back because they were “despots and tyrants.” Usually accompanied by a speech or whatever.

I think it’s possible that Chibnall and RTD to an extent are upsetty spaghetti with Moffat for bringing the Time Lord’s back because they don’t want the hero of the show being emotionally tied to and empathetic with a self-aggrandizing civilization that lords itself over the universe simply because they can.

Yet it’s unavoidable to escape the reality that by birth the Doctor is a part of that self-aggrandizing civilization, specifically the aristocratic portion and that’s what makes them different. Unless you make them an entirely different species from a different universe altogether. Or make them sterile so they can’t procreate.

I don’t think they’re actually upset with him, but there is clearly a fundamental difference of opinion of the Time Lords happening between within this oroborous of showrunners we’ve had for the last twenty years.

Personally, I think Moffat is the only one of the three who fundamentally understands that the Doctor being a native Time Lord and choosing to be different–even changing the hearts of some others along the way–is what makes the Time Lords a perfect foil for our hero.

It’s complex, it’s interesting, and you can get a lot of good storytelling from it. It’s like being a the one person in your family with different political beliefs (the good kind) and you still love your family, but fundamentally you are different from them. And that creates a lot of interesting scenarios.

But we’re not allowed to get that anymore. And it sucks and I hate it.

Clearly I do not know what these men talk about, they’re great friends to one another, but like anyone they have differing opinions on certain aspects of the lore and we are all suffering for it. Lol

And I also get the logistics of how the show is made now versus back in the day when it was twenty minutes multi-part serials and longer seasons. Using the Time Lords over and over now could get boring…but we still get the same with Daleks and Cybermen, or did anyways, and for my money it’s getting boring to keep hearing “the last of the Time Lords” every season. So it’s a lose- lose situation currently.

What are your thoughts?

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Its really a shame that after saving Gallifrey, Moffat introduced barely any. We got the General but that’s really it for named Time Lords I think. Tecteun also, but she wasn’t around for long.

Its a shame there is so much potential for new and exciting Time Lords, they don’t always have to be returnees. BF have proven that with characters like the Eleven.

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I’d rather tv doesn’t mess with it more. They just seem to drag out old characters and make them boring with as little screen time as possible now

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I think it’s a great shame that they’ve never tried to make a TV version of Gallifrey. An all out, unashamedly geeky fest with robes, high collars, political machinations and some good old space opera. And, to please certain forum members, lots of Narvin!

It would be awesome.

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I’d take even a tiny bit :eyes::eyes:

I have more thoughts on this matter but I need a caffeinated beverage before I can put them in any order

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Yes, instead of that stupid War Between the Land and the Sea stuff no one gives a crap about, we should just get a War Between the Sea Narvin and the Land Narvin spin-off. That would be glorious!

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It’s a shame we can’t have a Two or Three Narvins kind of sitch because imagine the headache they’d give each other :star_struck:

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He’d be sooooooo stressed

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Also I just really wish we could get random time lords showing up again without it being a huge deal. Not just Narvin, but anyone! I think it’s a cooler universe if they’re just out there. And in general, for all their imperialistic society, gallifrey is so stagnant as a society, you wouldn’t need to do anything with them. Just let them exist in their corner of space and drag one out every now and then

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Unfortunately, I think we just have to come to terms with the fact that RTD is not bringing Gallifrey back. We had our chance ten years ago and it’s gonna be a sizeable wait longer.

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I think that it was a great move to remove Gallifrey from the equation in 2005. Then it was possible to focus on the Doctor and start building him up by himself. It kind of mirrors 1963 in a way. I also feel like it was time to bring it back when Moffat did it. It felt like a good end to that story. I have said it before, but I think that destroying Gallifrey again is the strangest decision CC ever made, especially the way that he did it.

But to go back to why we don’t have that many Time Lords, I think that it is mainly because it is hard to make stories set on Gallifrey good. I can’t think of one good TV story set on Gallifrey. Some are fine, but nothing really great, and I think that is the main reason why. It is hard to make good stories set on Gallifrey. It is also tied to a lot of lore that is hard to introduce in a way that is satisfying for old and new viewers.

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Literally this :index_pointing_up:t2:

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Yep, I may be an outlier here but stories like The Deadly Assassin I just find boring. I really don’t care about the politcal machinations of the Time Lords. Doctor Who left Gallifrey for a reason! One of those reasons being it is so boring! As you say its hard to introduce that stuff in a satisfying way.

I get why some feel destroying Gallifrey again was a bad idea, but bringing it back was worse. I feel the CC era wanted to return to the original concept a bit more, the Doctor as a mysterious figure travelling the universe with a less defined backstory. Whether that was succesful or not is personal taste.

I really am not sure if the Whoniverse will amount to much seeing as a lot of things are up in the air at the moment - the BBC should focus on the main show as a priority. But if we do get more then a Gallifrey set spin-off would be the best way to go for more Time Lord focused stories.

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That’s a fair enough point. I really do think the best formula for them is either what BF has been doing with Gallifrey as a political series or for the Doctor he gets pulled into a story by them or comes across one in the wild. If he goes to Gallifrey something bad is going down.

One of my favorite DW stories from the expanded media I’ve experienced so far is the story Neverland which sees the Time Lords pulling the Doctor into something they have going on and it goes from there and it’s incredible.

You probably have part of the equation figured out which is also like you said so weird they just keep blowing it up instead of just letting it be. They keep killing Gallifrey.

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Only if they return exactly like this!

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This is the second time in two days that we agree on stuff. This is starting to feel weird!

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I think that Gallifrey is a fantastic setting for EU stuff. It can provide more lore to fans who are willing to search for it without confusing more casual fans.

My main concern with this is that it makes it harder for a future showrunner to create stories there if they want to, because they have to return it first.

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ik i just shared this only yesterday in another thread but it definitely belongs here

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Us talking about a Narvin cameo lol

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I hypothesised this when reviewing Reality War, and the more I think about it, the more convinced I am of it: RTD began the trend of the Doctor as the last of the Time Lords so he wouldn’t have to write any of the others. And given his attempts with the Master, Rassilon, the Rani, and Omega, I can see why.

Moffat brought them back (more as a means of clearing the Doctor’s conscience than for any narrative purpose to do with Gallifrey in and of itself), and set aside a whole regeneration to build up its return… only to not do anything with it because his approach to it was as a lore fixture, rather than an actual location with actual people and an actual culture behind it. (I know that I’m in the minority when it comes to Hell Bent, but this is how it comes across to me)

There’s also the general decline of the Time Lords over the course of the classic era. In their first named introduction, The War Games, they were powerful enough to erase entire civilisations from history, like cruel and powerful space wizards. But the more they appeared, the less powerful they were presented, to the point of becoming a joke species by the time of the Fourth Doctor, what with the legal loopholes and the Doctor becoming their president to avoid execution. And then ending up in court as Sixth, where the entire system was played by another version of the Doctor(?)

The EU admittedly did a fair bit to bring back their older edge, and one of the main reasons why I defend The Timeless Children is that that level of wanton cruelty and exploitation is closer to the original vision of Time Lord society than the previous decades’ worth of appearances on-screen (in my view, at least). Writing for them nowadays requires not just sticking the landing on creating a society so corrupt, and so unjust, that the Doctor left them for a reason, but also walking back their pre-NuWho decline in a way that fits.

Narratively, I get the annoyance with no more Gallifrey and such; the emotional wells have been thoroughly drained, and there are stories that can be told with them back. But there are quite a few hurdles getting in the way of such things from a practical standpoint.

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