Just watched revolution of the Daleks. Now I’ve finished s12, I’m on flux next! I’ll probably take a break and watch some classic who first though.
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The Flux is coming!!!
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This is why the Timeless Child never ever bothered me as an idea, firstly because it chimes with tons of things in the EU/Cartmel Masterplan (The Other, Lady Peinforte etc), and secondly because it resets the title of the show in a fun way, because now The Doctor also isn’t sure where they come from or what they are exactly. Which I like because it makes no real difference, our character is our character, we only need to know them by their actions and what they stand for now, we didn’t know anything about them for years, and that wasn’t a bad thing; we got a little complacent with the backstory recently, it’s nice to have a little mystery about the place again! Plus, why on earth would it matter to me if William Hartnell played The First Doctor™️ or just the first Doctor we meet? Having been conscripted to do nefarious Time Lord business and then rebelling is very Doctor. And the effect this revelation would have on The Master is exactly what we see, he would lose his tiny mind to discover he is actually, literally, not as important as The Doctor. I love all of it except destroying Gallifrey yet again, but at least Chibnall tried to make it permanent, the thing I don’t love is turning the Gallifrey lights off and on constantly, either leave it there or blow it up, but let’s stop being angsty over it either way, Doctor. It’s the boldest and most interesting finale of the reboot, I have said what I have said haha.
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I thought TTC theory was terrible at first also because I don’t like the “chosen one” trope and preferred the Doctor to just be some random person, but from a fanfic perspective I’ve come to like it. Because of the sort of stories I write, TTC gave me a plausible way to write the Doctor’s background and familial life while still staying true to canon. I don’t even know where I’d start in building my own version of the Doctor’s family.
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I was very anti-timeless child when the episode released - it came at a time when I had checked out of the show a bit (series 12 was the first, and to date only, series I didn’t watch live since becoming a fan), and it kind of pushed me to not think about the show at all for a while. I’ve calmed down on it quite a bit since then, but I still have my own headcanon on it to make it work for me. I think the plotline as presented on screen takes a lot of the mystery out of the character (I know others have the exact opposite take, which is fine), and I also find elements of it a bit uncomfortably essentialist. No disrespect to those who like it or love it (I know there are many people on this forum who do so) - I just hope it doesn’t get touched again in the main show, so my headcanon additions to it can remain intact.
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I really really don’t like the chosen one trope either, but this one feels different somehow. doctor didn’t know they were important until now, and it didn’t change anything going forward iirc, nor did it affect all the previous doctor’s tv appearances.
I will say though, in nuwho, the doctor is treated as way more important than classic. they are the last time lord, so they are ‘special’, and they are very well known and even get likened to a god (which I’m not a fan of)
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can you explain a bit further? /gen I don’t know what essentialist means
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I’m not a fan of this either. If TTC is never touched again on TV, that would be ideal (as DoctorDisco said). When it comes down to it, I prefer to think of the Doctor as being as unimportant as possible in the grand scheme of things, which is partly why I like imagining how he’d be as a human instead. All of the drama surrounding him isn’t something I’m into.
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The Timeless Child is not a traditional ‘chosen one’ trope, its quite different to ideas for the Cartmel Master Plan. The Timeless Child idea doesn’t make Doctor Who an individual who plays an active role, they are just used due to a genetic trait.
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Sure 
Basically, essentialism is the concept that objects or people have an innate set of characteristics which make them what they are, and which they need to possess in order to in some way “be themselves”. Obviously, most of the time this concept can be applied to things without issue (a car needs an engine and wheels to be a car, for example), but I start to get a bit uncomfortable when it gets applied to individuals (fictional or otherwise), because I think it can erase their personal autonomy and their capacity to grow and change, by suggesting that they must always possess certain characteristics (physical, mental or otherwise), to be who they are.
In the case of the timeless child, the uncomfortable element for me is the idea that the Doctor is somehow inherently the Doctor, and their traits and identity are somehow inherent to them biologically. The First Doctor, and subsequent Doctors, are initially presented as being who they are because of the choices they’ve made - One chose to flee Gallifrey, walk away from his stagnant and corrupt civilisation, and take on the name of the Doctor as a promise to himself, Two chose to summon the Time Lords to stop the war games despite knowing the consequences for himself, and so on. The timeless child suggests that actually, these behaviours and the “Doctor” identity are somehow hardwired into the Doctor from their pre-chameleon arch selves, rather than being things they had the capacity to develop independently. I really dislike that personally, as I think it erases the power of the Doctor as a positive inspiration for people to take control of their own identities and shape their own lives, and downplays the importance of personal autonomy in the character’s development.
The other element I find a bit icky is the idea that our Doctor isn’t their “true self”, as they’ve been chameleon arched. I don’t like the implication that this makes our Doctor somehow not their “correct” self and that they should in any way need to regain their lost memories to “fix” that - again, I think it denies the personhood and autonomy of the character a bit.
As I’ve said above, I think there are ways around this - I personally headcanon the timeless child and Fugitive Doctors as future Doctors who’ve somehow ended up in Gallifrey’s past. This keeps the timeless child plotline intact, but also preserves the First Doctor and subsequent Doctors as the originators of their own identity, and avoids those uncomfortable elements for me.
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Oh no, you mentioned The Web Planet and were negative towards it, now HE will show up…
/lh
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thank you for explaining, this is all really interesting!
It makes me a bit uncomfortable too, now that you’ve pointed it out. however, strangely enough, I didn’t get this from the tv episodes I watched, I had just been assuming that everything pre-hartnell got erased, therefore anything after that is the doctor’s own choices and character growth.
I think that the doctor running away from gallifrey and making their own identity away from the time lords is beautiful, especially because they choose their own name too, so I’m not a fan at all of the idea that that is who they are ‘supposed’ to be, like it was destined or something. I’ve always disliked the ‘chosen one’ and ‘destiny’ stuff in fantasy books, so I’ll have to do a bit of thinking to get round this. I really like your headcanon!
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He who shall not be named! 
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Not naming any names but he may share his name with a Seventh Doctor story from Season 24.
Just maybe.
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Ah yes, tardis guide user timeandtherani
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oh, my username if I ever changed it 
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It’s only when you really think about it that this becomes a problem, TBF. If everything pre-Hartnell is erased, then the Doctor somehow independently developed the same identity and values twice, which implies they are biologically inherent to them as an individual and not something they personally create as they grow and develop in life. It becomes less of a problem if you want to think that some memories slip through and are preserved on a subconscious level, but we never get any other evidence or hint of this elsewhere in the show, other than a few very minor bits over the last 60 years - the implication in The Timeless Children is very much that everything pre-Hartnell is completely erased, as you say above.
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No, no, no.
Surely it must be ParadiseTowersPartOnePartTwoPartThreePartFour!
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you’ve given me a lot to think about, thank you! I definitely don’t like the idea that the doctor-y stuff in inherent to them, so maybe some memories did slip through? or maybe they are from an alternate timeline? I’ve never given this much thought to ‘canon’ or ‘timelines’ so it’ll be fun coming up with my own headcanons 
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Definitely, I think part of the fun of a show like Doctor Who is coming up with your own spins and ideas on things! I don’t wish to ruin the timeless child for people who do like it either - I’m not the universal arbiter of which Doctor Who storylines are good and which are bad! (If only I was, then you’d all see 
).
I have seen some lovely spins on the timeless child from others on this forum as well - @shauny had a really good one back in my Fugitive Doctor timeline thread
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