TV Club: Torchwood - Cyberwoman

I haven’t got a strong opinion on this episode - I don’t think it’s as reprehensible as some say but it also didn’t strike me as a great. It is interesting reading your points and I am glad that you’ve shared them, and I think by and large I agree with you, if just I feel a little less strongly than you.

However, I am aromantic so that ‘intensity of love’ argument is completely lost on me. I am glad that you can see yourself reflected in Ianto’s passion, but unfortunately to me I do agree with @Tian and @BillFiler - I also hate the way romantic love is always always shown as the most powerful force ever because that is not something I’ve ever understood because it doesn’t feel that way to me. I don’t think changing the situation to a parental one would make the episode better but the ‘love’ thing does also leave me cold and make me see Ianto as quite immature, alas

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I’m arospec, and I get that. Most of the time I really don’t like the way romance can overshadow any other plot. A lot of that is unfortunately amatonormative writing and the expectation that every viewer will be able to relate, but I don’t think that’s the case here. The writing and the chemistry between the actors works well to make me believe their relationship.

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Here’s my thoughts from when I watched the episode back in June:

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I adore Cyberwoman. It’s my favourite of season 1, and on par with Adam for my overall favourite.

As I’ve said before, upon first watching it, I just headcanoned that the flashback scene is incorrect, and Lisa was more body-horror than sexualized after immediate conversion. But as Ianto looked after her, he purposefully made it look like underwear so she could cover up in clothing. Either her own (which the books say he kept at his home) or his own.

Just, on the point someone mentioned about Ianto should have more experience with Cybermen, he doesn’t. He wasn’t at Canary Wharf until after the episode ended, when all the Cybermen had left, and all that remained were the bodies (Torchwood Archive audio). Though it is also implied he used underground tunnels to escape the building with her.
But I do love how later EU material expanded on the idea that Ianto’s greatest fear would be metal beings following the Fall.

In the episode itself, I also love GDL’s portrayal of love, and loyalty to Torchwood One. With the additional context of Blind Summit, I honestly don’t think it’s over-acting or bad-acting at all. His loyalty was dedicated to TW1 (as with most operatives, through indoctrination) so it makes sense why it’s difficult for him to think rationally or pragmatically here, with that loyalty being so artificially ingrained. Atp he knew nothing but Torchwood One. Before joining, he was a depressed loser, broke, lonely guy, and Yvonne saw him and was like “I’m gonna manipulate and drug him into being my dedicated, soldier-like PA :smiling_face_with_three_hearts:”. Imo, she did that to such an extreme, that by the time Ianto joins TW3, that artificial loyalty has been redirected nearly entirely on to Lisa.

Though I do recognize I’m bringing up a lotta EU points, but these honestly just add cherries to the top of the (delicious) cake that is the episode itself.

My only critique would be 1) I wish some of the camera angles would zoom out a bit. Especially when Ianto and Jack are arguing after first finding Lisa, I wish that scene wasn’t so zoomed in on their faces. Because it does make out Ianto to be distraught, but as seen with the BTS photos, in the scene he’s literally standing his ground, and staring down Jack, which somewhat changes the tone for me. And the 2) critique, the barbecue sauce was pretty dumb. But it doesn’t ruin anything for me.

Also GDL’s portrayal of anxiety, the slow turn as Jack asks for a coffee, I love that so much, the dread is so palpable.
Won’t lie, I watched this as a kid, and the episode was the first time I properly felt what a heartache was. That’s how good I found the acting. (Apart from JB’s acting, I do think that’s a bit stunted-).

I think Lisa was genuinely herself, and only became fully converted in her mind once she was able to walk independently. We see other operatives (who again, can’t walk) in the Torchwood Archive audio who are still themselves when partially converted. If you look in the background of the scene where she’s introduced, Ianto had basically made that room into a mini-home for them both. Which is so heartbreaking.

They should’ve kept in the final deleted scene with Toshiko too, that was just adorable. She’s the only operative I could think of at that point who he’d be willing to accept a coffee from.

I’d also mention the great scene in In The Shadows audio, highlighting how one of Jack’s greatest insecurities was that Ianto was still loyal to Lisa by 2008, and that he only ever wanted to hurt Jack in the long-run, so he could feel the same pain as what Ianto felt when he killed Lisa. In this, Jack also describes what happened as “saving” Ianto from his own “Madness”, which again, imo, alludes to the indoctrination of TW1.

Having only just completed all of the Revival era of Doctor Who, I can definitely say that this is my favorite Cyberman story of the Revival run. I much prefer seeing this portrayal of love (through Ianto’s devotion) than the typical “the power of love prevented me from becoming a Cyberman” (Craig Owens cough-cough).

This ‘Iantos devotion’ point, I could also literally write an essay about. I don’t think it was “the power of love” which was the reason for his actions. In the short story Virus, Ianto goes on a massacre in order to save Jack and Gwen, demonstrating that same intense loyalty. I view it more as a soldier with a duty (to Queen and Country), or a worshipper to their religion, than the Power of Love trope.

And it made me much more intrigued by Ianto as a character, as someone who rewatched Doomsday/Army of Ghosts a million times as a kid, and who still has an Army of Ghosts poster on their wall lol.

Edit: maybe I’d write a proper review at some point, but I’m still on the fence (no pun intended) about writing one for Disco.

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It’s a real shame about how that outfit turned out. The script asks for horrifically beautiful, and instead, you get beautifully horrific. Even when you know it’s just entirely riffing upon a 1995 Thierry Mugler retro-futurist piece of fashion - even down to the heels! No, really. There’s even a Wiki page for that! Robot couture - Wikipedia

Because, actually, at the script level - bar the dinosaur flimflamming - there’s something solid there. Someone once said to me that if you listen to this one like an audio drama, it drastically improves, and they’re right.

But alas, it is what it is. In light of shows now like Domino Day on BBC3 as well, it’s also a bit sad that more isn’t made about that doctor leering over and ogling her before meeting his demise. (You could’ve made ‘sexy Cybergirl’ work in some sense, if at least it was a story about a woman’s struggle in a world of objectifying men that she murders off. Heck, even half-explain all the Bikini-fication as Ianto having tried to tear bits of the Cyberman chassis off. I don’t know…)

I think it’s an episode symptomatic of those early pains that this show has, really. The story meant to be about morality, the meaning of sex & hookup culture mostly doesn’t land tonally as anything other than ‘that one with the sex-gas’. Here, the story meant to be about a desperate man trying to cobble some semblance of humanity back into a loved one stripped of it becomes ‘that one with the bikini’.

That said, I will say that I think it’s often-forgotten that it was said at the time that ‘Cybergirl in the basement’ was part of the initial show brief given to Chris Chibnall when he was being asked to head-write the show. So, in my mind, surely someone should have already thought that having that in the brief alongside ‘dark and sexy side of the Doctor Who universe’ might result in this sort of thing.

But yeah, just look at how much better the story feels once Lisa’s stitched her brain into that other girl, and you get to just have a properly grotesque bit of imagery. And the show trundles on until that final tragic image of Ianto going back to clearing the Hub up whilst Gwen and Jack watch from nearby. Just stoically getting on with the ‘housework’ even whilst he’s shouldering that upset and the emotion of all he’s put everyone through.

Can we have a CGI replacement Special Edition? ‘Put some clothes on the Cybergirl & some rotten flesh’ edit? No?

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Okay we finally come to the most infamous Torchwood Episode and well I have some thoughts. I don’t think I surprise anybody when I say Torchwood so far didn’t do it for me, that said… this is the best Torchwood Episode so far and maybe for this whole Series.

I highly recommend reading @uss-genderprise’s review on that Episode and while I don’t think as highly as they do think of the Episode (glad they adore it), I do genuinely think there is a lot of good to be found.

Firstly, the big Elephant in the Room: What about the Costume?
Well… I am conflicted about it, one hand somebody could argue they were trying to go for a similar look from a Movie such as Metropolis (which is by the way the best German Movie in my eyes and everybody should watch it at least once), but kinda failed at it. But it’s also hard to defend it too much, since it does kinda strike me sightly of the Issue with Torchwood at least in the early days when they do it because they can do it. I do think it could be designed much better and there is a way you can read much more into it, but yeah not that great but also far away from the worst. It is at least doing something with the Body Horror, which was really lacking in all the RTD1 Cybermen Stories.

And dare I say as a Cybermen Story it is one of the best in the Revival Time. There is something really nice seeing a Story remember the Core of the Cybermen, lack of Emotions, a Story such as Next Doctor just kinda forgot. The lack of Emotions should as often as possible being a vocal point of those Story, because why else should it be Cybermen and not something else like your regular “evil” Robots?
Exploring Ianto’s Character here is really well done for the most Part. Do I think he behaves a bit too irrational? Yeah, but I think that’s kinda the point here and really fits well when put in contrast with the Cybermen. Their core idea is a lack of Emotion replaced with only Logic, having a Story with a Character just not being able to let go of their Lover and behaving very irrational because of it fits perfectly in my eyes.
The Story is by no means perfect for me, there is a lot for it going, and I genuinely believe compared to the “Sex Gas” Episode it has a lot more about it to say and feels like a much better step into the right direction. Overall, my favorite Torchwood Episode so far.
(Yes I know I mainly went with the Cybermen Aspect of this Episode, but honestly I am not quite sure what else to add here, since a lot of it was already covered or said by others here :sob:)

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I really don’t see what you are seeing. It is interesting to read your positive reviews. But to be honest I feel like I saw a different episode than you guys did…

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Reading people disliking or loving this episode has been a delight.

This feels like Love and Monsters of Torchwood. An episode that has a bad reputation (usually because of one or two smaller things - the Abzorbaloff and the slab gag vs. the Cyberwoman and the BBQ sauce thing; see the similarities?), and it’s become so cool to hate it that a lot of people can’t see past that and dislike it because of that. So I was happy to see a lot of people here who genuinely like it.

Personally, I find it a great episode. A base under siege with some disturbing elements and a great character piece for Ianto.

It has flaws. The costume is what it is - it looks silly, it’s overly “sexy” (Chibnall envisioned it as a bit more body horror), and it’s a bit Metropolis (I agree with @RandomJoke; it’s a super film!). But it’s not as bad as everyone says it is.

Also, the pterodactyl scene. It looks bad, but the concept is okay.

And the Owen/Gwen thing. No, just no. I like Owen but this is too much even for me.

Also, GDL and the actress playing Lisa fall into melodrama in the second half, so it’s a bit too much. On the other hand, Captain Jack is on fire and shows a very tough side here.

The buildup of tension is great, and the action in the second half is great. I enjoyed myself, despite some of the flaws.

:memo: 8/10

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I thought that was Random Shoes!

/hj

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Removing personal biases,I’d say fundamentally it’s just a great exploration about the consequences of The Doctors actions following Season 2. Demonstrates an interesting butterfly effect, and makes the wider Whoniverse feel more consequential to these characters.

The Doctor here is more of an omen. In part, I’m glad they never released ‘Absent Friends’, because I know, ultimately, there wouldn’t have been a scene where Ianto and the Doctor realize they were both at Canary Wharf. They could either reconcile here, or it’d create further tensions. Throughout Army of Ghosts/Doomsday, the focus is heavily on Rose and the Doctor, who can be seen as having tremendous fun at some points in the story, while TW1 operatives are simultaneously getting converted in the lower levels. Providing that extra perspective makes Cyberwoman feel more grounded in human suffering. And shows a greater personal loss (Lisa for Ianto) than Rose (safe with her family in Pete’s World) to the Doctor.

That, and if you watched Army of Ghosts/Doomsday, Ianto is more like an audience surrogate in this episode as opposed to Gwen. Which imo, is a bit refreshing, as Gwen early-on was treated like an inexperienced idiot by the rest of the team.

Adding in personal bias, the Broken audio probably helped the perception of this episode. And Ianto Jones is just an interesting character to explore.

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A lot of really interesting opinions to read in this thread! The main thing about Cyberwoman, especially looking back with context from s2, is that it’s the first of a series of episodes which are, more or less, “Black female character gets her body horrifically changed without her knowledge or consent”. (There’s Lisa here, Beth in Sleeper, and Martha in Reset. Notably two of these even get killed by Torchwood at the end of the episode). Whilst you can absolutely do topics like loss of bodily autonomy in your fiction, the way Cyberwoman goes about it is not necessarily. brilliant.

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This is an unpopular opinion and I have not consumed any TW apart from watching the show one time. But I don’t think that he is that interesting. I think that he is kind of boring.

Please don’t hate me :heart:

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Dw, I don’t hate you lol.

I can understand why he’s kinda dull in the show. I despise the From Out of The Rain episode as it’s just so BORINNGGGG (apart from when they first enter The Electro, that’s cute).

He’s much better in EU material, but I also like him for being good autistic representation, and he’s around the same age as me. His struggles in a 2018 audio (set in 2004) are very much still applicable 20 years on.
And him maladaptively daydreaming about being James Bond (that one deleted scene) :heart:. I’d say he really shines in TW1 audios, and I’d like to think Yvonne and Tommy were training him to be like how he was in ‘Ex Machina’.

But I’m never going to tell someone they MUST like a character or a story, cuz that’s just invalidating.

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Someday I will try some TW EU stuff. But there is a lot on my backlog before that.

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Just don’t start with Main Range no.83, ‘Disco’, because that’s the first one my boyfriend listened to and now he thinks everything else is kinda mid in comparison

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Honestly, in my head I always imagine Elton and Eugene are the same person. They even look and act very similar and have such similar names.

YOU TAKE THAT BACK!!! :sob: Ianto my beloved.

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Oh don’t worry, we’re getting to the Love and Monsters of Torchwood eventually (in terms of tone and storytelling tbf, rather than fan reaction)

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Yeah this and the costume are both criticisms of the episode that I’ll absolutely respect and don’t have any defence for (well, the costume has it’s inspirations but it utterly failed so I won’t defend it)

Even ignoring Reset and Sleeper, the fact that this is the way the first person of colour black character (edited because I was only thinking of supporting cast and forgot Tosh, the point stands though)on the show is treated is…

Well it’s not great

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Genuine question - do we not count Tosh as a ‘person of colour’? (Not taking away from any comments about how black people are used in the series at all because I think that is still a valid point).

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WHOOPS

Not sure how I overlooked Tosh, i was thinking of the supporting cast and couldn’t think of any before Lisa, editing original message because I think it still stands with her being the first black character

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