The Eleven / The Multitude

Naming things is hard, as The Eleven himself said in The Crucible of Souls.

I’ve just finished Ravenous and was looking at the Monsters checklist on the website, only to realise I’ve made a little bit of a mistake here.

Whereas The Master is a pretty simple catch-all name for every incarnation of the renegade Time Lord, The Eleven is the name of the first incarnation we meet, but his other selves (The Two, The Six, etc and even numbers after 11) are not “incarnations of The Eleven” as such and so the page listing all their stories isn’t correct.

So I looked up on TARDIS Wiki if there is a catch-all name, and they seem to be either called The Multitude or The Collective. I’m going to go for The Multitude as that is the name on TARDIS Wiki, do you think that’s the right thing to do?

I think because that’s not that well known, I’ll probably have The Eleven in the list separately and The Multitude as well. What do you think?

Also - and please bear in mind there are loads of their stories I haven’t listened to yet so please spoiler tag - general thoughts on the character? Do you think they are a good villain? How do they compare to The Master, which is the most obvious comparison I can think to make?

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I think the Multitude is a good idea, that seems the easiest thing to do.

And I think I’ve said this before elsewhere a couple of times, but the Eleven is very conflicting to me. On the one hand, Mark Bonnar is stunning and his performances are always top notch in any audio he’s in. Truly a delight to listen to. Also, the concept of split regenerations in one’s head is fascinating, the idea of Time Lord psychology is one that I think you could talk a lot about.

However, I’m not a great fan of the way that the Eleven is goofishly evil just because he has a split personality disorder taken to the next level. It seems to me that this is the only reason why he’s ‘crazy’ and personally, I think that’s a kind of tired trope. Although I like a lot of the stories he’s in, many of them make me uncomfortable with the way he’s presented as if to say ‘of course he’s evil, it’s the natural thing to have happened because of his disorder’. And I think in the modern day, we should be able to find a little more nuance than that.

That said, I did like the Eight Time War stories with the Twelve, as I thought she was a genuinely more interesting thing to do with the idea.

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I tend to agree, at first I enjoyed The Eleven but increasingly found the concept problematic. As you say a tired trope, an outdated way to use Dissociative Identity Disorder & just prepetuates a certain attitude towards those with it.

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I believe the current collective term for the character is “The Renegade” based off of how they were credited in their first Once and Future appearance.

Again, I’m pitching “The Count”

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This was a cute reference to the way Omega’s appearance in Arc of Infinity was hidden by crediting the character under the same name, used for much the same purpose!

However, I’m not a great fan of the way that the Eleven is goofishly evil just because he has a split personality disorder taken to the next level. It seems to me that this is the only reason why he’s ‘crazy’ and personally, I think that’s a kind of tired trope.

And if it helps @sircarolyn, I think the writers at Big Finish had the same thought. In the story (where the character’s presence is meant to be a surprise) Once and Future: The Union, the Doctor refutes the idea that it’s why they’re evil, and I think this also gets touched on in Once and Future: Two’s Company but I might just be getting scenes from stories mixed up.

Definitely up to the listener how well it’s addressed, but I’m glad they realised how the character can come off and perpetuate stigmas around people with DID.

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I’ve gone with The Multitude :smile:

Warning, this page contains spoilers because it shows which stories they are in, some are secret!

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Yes, I enjoyed the Union, and I hope if/when they bring back the Eleven (or any other number) back, they continue to keep this in mind. I don’t at all think any of the writers have at any point meant to make any negative implications, it’s just I as a listener think it’s time to retire that trope for a while