The Doctor's Love Affairs

Cross-Media Discussions
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The Girl in the Fireplace in TV Club got me thinking about those rare times we’ve seen the Doctor ‘involved’ in a relationship.

The first time, of course, was his touching dalliance with Cameca in The Aztecs and in the modern series we have had Madame de Pompadour, Rose, Rogue and he even got married to River Song.

Some have suggested there is a frisson between the Second Doctor and Astrid in The Enemy of the World and then there is the Doctor’s first televised kiss in the TV Movie between the Eighth Doctor and Grace.

And then, of course, there is love between 13 and Yaz.

In the audios, the Eighth Doctor professed his love for Charley and Queen Zafira plans to marry the Fifth Doctor in the Lost Story, Hexagora.

Any suggestion of ‘sexuality’ or anything beyond platonic relationships for the Doctor has often been seen as a no go area by Doctor Who fans (no hanky panky in the TARDIS as JNT used to say) and I know the classic series’ leaning towards the Doctor being asexual was something which appealed to fans as it set him apart from many other leading characters in sci-fi.

What are your thoughts on this aspect of the Doctor? Was it a necessary development for the modern series to appeal to modern audiences? Is it handled well by the production teams? Has it always been there, but just hidden until more recent times? Does the expanded universe develop these aspects further than TV ever could?

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I think that, even if I personally don’t 100% agree with it, RTD bringing a romance aspect for the Doctor into NewWho probably was the right move. It’s the kind of thing a modern audience would expect to see, and as trying to draw a new audience in was the most important thing for them to do, I do think it made sense as a move.

However. I am a big believer in an aro/ace Doctor. Though there are some relationships I am more open to (with River, for instance), I think it’s nice that DW has so often been a series that hasn’t been about romance. I am probably biased in this from being aromantic myself, but I think it’s great that we have a character that can show such love to all their friends to such a degree that we can argue as to the exact ‘‘classification’’ of platonic or romantic or whatever.

For myself, I tend to tap out of the explicitly romantic relationships, but the most recent 9th Doctor boxset with River had an absolutely lovely throughline kind of adressing this, and I think the take of each regeneration having a slightly different opinion was an interesting and easy way to solve the problem of why some Doctors seem more aroace than others.

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I guess I have to listen to that one with 9 and River, because as the Ninth Doctor says to Rose, almost offended "you just assume I don’t dance. I’ve always thought the Ninth Doctor "got around ".

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Don’t care for the romance stuff at all.

With Cameca, he was trying to get information, and the engagement was accidental. Clearly he found her charming, but I do not see that as romance.

Thought the kissing in 1996 was unnecessary (to the story, not commenting on the marketing needs), and would have preferred that be left out too.

Since 2005, there’s been way too much of it, and With less and less reason, culminating in Rogue, where the Doctor is crazy in love 10 seconds after meeting someone.

But if that’s what it took to draw in enough viewers to keep the series going, I’ll stomach it, same way I stomach Regurgitation of the Daleks, which keeps happening because Repetition of the Daleks is an audience draw.

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Speaking in terms of canon only, I dislike it. I’m also one of those fans who thought it was neat that the Doctor was so explicitly aro/ace. I’m not someone who thinks there’s too much romance in media (I love romance), but it was refreshing to find a character where their lack of interest in sex and romance was seen as a normal part of them. It isn’t shown as something that should be changed, and none of the other characters try to force anything on them (generally).

By giving the Doctor sexual and romantic attraction, it lowkey removed the mystique for me. Now he’s less like an alien who is entirely unaffected by the whims of their “little heads”, and more like a normal, quirky person who happens to own a spaceship. I understand a lot of fans want their fanservice and representation, but that’s what fandom is for. Write fics! Draw! Gush to your friends! You can give the Doctor all the relationships you want without having to worry about if the BBC or Big Finish will present it to your liking.

Was it a necessary development for the modern series to appeal to modern audiences?

I think so, unfortunately. New Who is vastly more popular than Classic Who for (many) a reason, and shipping is what propelled Rose and Yaz (and now Rogue) to their heights. Doctor Who wouldn’t be able to sustain itself if they’d stuck to their 20th century status quo. Fandom these days is primarily hinged on shipping, and the Classic Who side is the only decently sized fandom I know that actively eschews it.

Is it handled well by the production teams?

Speaking objectively, I think so. I don’t like the Fifteen/Rogue relationship, but I don’t mind too much how it was done. Same for Rose. I can understand why some may have felt baited by Thirteen and Yaz, but, again, if the Doctor would’ve just been left as aro/ace, none of that would’ve been an issue. Ship Thasmin however you want in fandom. Doctor Who is a sci-fi, not a romantic drama or a snog-a-thon.

A lot of the fun in shipping Six/Peri for me comes with the fact that isn’t canon. If it were to ever be made official, I don’t think I would like it because it wouldn’t fit the ideal I’ve created in my head (because it’s a family-oriented sci-fi and not a romance…). But fandom these days wants everything handed to them for some reason. They want the writers to write for them, instead of for the show itself.

And River? Her relationship with the Doctor is handled atrociously.

Has it always been there, but just hidden until more recent times?

Yes, it’s just a matter of if you want to see it or not. In my view, Six and Peri have sexual/romantic tension in the show (and in audio). This isn’t expressed outright, but if you want to see it, it’s there. If you don’t want to see it, they just look like close friends. And this goes for other Classic Doctor/companion pairs. If you want to read between the lines, you can imagine anything. If you don’t, it won’t ruin your experience.

New Who is the complete opposite. They force you to see the romance. There is no room for interpretation, and that’s what I dislike.

Does the expanded universe develop these aspects further than TV ever could?

I can only speak for Six and Peri, but the audios definitely play up the fanservice/shipping aspect of them. There are innuendos in a lot of the audios that are either straight up sexual or allude to flirting; and there are storylines themselves that, if you want to read between the lines, can be interpreted as romantic. I like how I am able to analyze these elements how I see fit.

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I wonder though, if the classic Doctors were made to have romantic or sexual relations (amongst other changes to the show), would DW have reached the same fate with the hiatus and eventual cancellation? Probably so, but I think a lot about what Michael Grade said in the S22 Blu-Ray interview. He wanted the BBC to have a more mature sci-fi show than what the DW production team could offer. Sex sells.

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In the thread about my Doctor Who ‘ick’ this was high up my list. I just don’t get the obsession with fans wanting to ‘ship’ various characters together as if a character isn’t a character unless we know they snogged each other.

I just find it a bit odd.

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Oh this is such a problem across many fandoms and the main reason ‘new’ eras of anything get hauled over the coals by fans who can’t accept the show isn’t only for them.

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I will say I am a shipper in some part of fandom, and for me it’s less about the surface level of ‘and now they are in love :)’ but a way of performing some thought experiments with the characters - what would lead them to say and do certain things? I have written a fair amount of fic, and though I tag a lot of it as a ‘ship’, most of it is more an exploration of the realtionships between characters who are deeply entwined (romantically or otherwise). Again, I think myself being aro affects this a lot bc I don’t ‘‘get’’ romance at all, but I have written a lot of, for instance, Leela/Romana fic as a ‘ship’ but is more about the fact that they are so completely pair bonded to each other, so what happens if you put them in scenarios?

You are right that an awful lot of fic is just ‘and they kissed’, and I honestly find that a little tiresome too. I also hate this trend that one only ships characters if they are going to ‘go canon’ - which was, I believe, a driving factor of 13/Yaz being shown on screen. To me, it’s all about playing about - I would honestly hate it if Leela/Romana ‘went canon’, they’re way more interesting in canon as they are now.

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:person_shrugging:

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I really only like it with Rose, Jack Harkness and Rogue. (Who I still think is Jack Harkness.)
I like the idea of River Song, but hate the execution. (i have a fixit fanfic in the works, let’s see if that ever sees the light of day…)
I don’t think eightcharley was necessarily romantic. I think there was flirtation, I think Charley definitley had a crush on 8, but it wasn’t a Rose Tyler situation where she would run off with a homonculus of 8, get married and have babies - Which is exactly why I think that flirtation works.
I think the Doctor is the sort of being that falls very rarely. Someone has to be a very specific type of person for them to fall in love. I think they have to align with at least one of the three ; the Doctor’s moral code, experience, or zest for life. Part of why I like the idea of River is because she is matched to the Doctor in experience. She can keep up with them. They sort of abandon and undermine this by always having her be chaperoned, even by her bloody parents.

The Doctor and the Master undeniably have a bit of a flirtation, but I read it as more of old friends, maybe academy sweethearts, but not together anymore.

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Personally, I headcanon all the doctors as biromantic/bisexual, but with preferances (and often location on the ace spectrum) shifting with regeneration.

As much as Moffatt doesn’t want him to, Eleven has always read as very far down the aro/ace spectrum to me, where Nine reads as bisexual, Ten as straight leaning bisexual, and of course Fifteen, Two, and Three reading as Gay leaning bisexual to me (to name a few)

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I almost laughed out loud during lunch, be their confession of love not so heartbreaking for me. I need a relisten on Neverland and Scherzo. Heck, I need to relisten from Storm Warning.

I can’t decide among old friends/enemies, academy sweethearts and old married couple vibe… Maybe friends who know each other so well they read as old married couple by everyone.

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I think one of the reasons I think the Doctor should have remained asexual is this:

This hundreds-of-year-old individual keeps whisking away very young, often teenage, girls who have no way to get home without him and are therefore are completely under his power and subject to his whims.

If he’s capable of sexual urges, then I think the situation is quite creepy and disturbing.

And please forgive my pronouning. I know that in recent years, there have been other dynamics, but for over 50 years the show generally stuck to the older male / young female paradigm.

Ship all you want, but I think the setup works best if the Doctor is oblivious to the charms of other beings.

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I just listened to Scherzo. Yeah, I ammend that. They had something deeper going on.

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