Story Variations - how best to handle these?

[Tian]

I thought that was how we had defined it like this:

Version - The same story with next no changes. For examples: Animation, Audio soundtrack, telesnaps, audiobooks

Adaptation - A new version of a story that may change some stuff from the original. For example Target books, Big Finish versions off books and Star Beast TV from the comic.

I know that some animations are almost adaptations but I stil feel like they are diffrent things. But Maybe they should just be one big thing.

[Tian]

I feel like they are variations for just that reason. To me, it is as real as watching telesnaps. But as you say, I don’t feel like target books are the same. They are something else.

[Koquillion]

Maybe we ought to be thinking less how people ‘watch’ a story and more how people ‘experience’ a story?

So, for example, if someone only reads a Power of the Daleks novelisation, it can still count towards a Second Doctor badge because they’ve experienced the story in whatever form they found best for them?

• I feel like this could also kick open the door for more inclusivity - eg. if a blind viewer can’t ‘watch’ a story but can still ‘experience’ a story via audiobook or narrated soundtrack, etc.
• It would also help cover grey areas like missing episodes, which nobody can watch but they can ‘experience’ in whatever form they find best.

Or is that complicating matters?

[shauny]

Yes that’s right (except it’s called Variation not version)

So animations are variations. But above you said it should be an adaptation.

[shauny]

I mean, that could make things simpler. I’d just need to slightly change the badge wording and category name.

[Tian]

Sorry, then I said it wrong. I think that we only should use this for those:

@Tian

Variation - The same story with next no changes. For examples: Animation, Audio soundtrack, telesnaps, audiobooks

[shauny]

I have to go for a while now but will keep thinking about this. Feel free to brainstorm more ideas

[CommanderBayban]

@shauny

What if, anyone who watches the Animated Reconstruction of The Power of the Daleks just puts their rating on the DVD?

I don’t like this idea. It’s possible to watch DVD content without actually owning it, so the main rating and the collectable rating should be separate.

[lwebb]

I agree. Most of the animations I have seen I have borrowed or streamed, not owned.

[MrColdStream]

So, things have been moving forward and sideways in my absence!

I also don’t really like the DVD idea.

I’m one of those white t-shirt and black baseball cap-wearing hardcore users who don’t mind having to click a few extra steps to mark a specific variation as watched and rate it. I mean, it’s not ideal but I’d happily do it!

[Tian]

Now I want a picture with your face on him

[MrColdStream]

Well, you asked, and I delivered. I’ve never looked better!

Please say hi to Hardcore Coldstream!

[DontBlink]

Now we need ColdStream to merge with the Abzorbaloff…

[MrColdStream]

Be careful what you wish for…

[nyssaoftraken]

Oh my, so many replies! I only have a few small thoughts to add.

@Koquillion

the DVD version of The Time Meddler is technically missing a few seconds of footage, which has been cleverly recreated and “stitched in”

The same is true for The Keys of Marinus!

@MrColdStream

This is why we should list individual episodes on the site rather than stories…

Please, no that would be too much for me and would make scrolling / sorting so much harder…

@shauny

So if they only watch the animated version of Power of the Daleks then I think they should still be able to unlock the badge for seeing all of the Second Doctor’s stories.

I would agree with this. You could argue some animations (like The Celestial Toymaker) are different enough to be counted as adaptations. But I don’t think people should be forced to watch / listen to a recon / soundtrack as well to be able to rate a story.

[deltaandthebannermen]

Well this thread got long and complicated!

Here’s my penny’s worth (which will probably repeat much of what has already been said but I’m trying to get my thoughts in order).

• We should have a ‘main page’ for each story. In most cases this will be the only ‘version’ of the story.
• Minor variations of stories such as bits cut or edited back into The Time Meddler or The Keys of Marinus or The War Machines make no difference because, ultimately, that’s just about technology/new discoveries returning a story to its original broadcast version.
• Reconstructions, audio soundtrack CDs and animations are variations because they are the only way of ‘experiencing’ the missing episodes. They should simply count towards rating the ‘main story’. The Venn diagram of fans who ‘saw the original broadcast’ and ‘are TARDIS Guide users’ is going to be pretty small so I like the idea that a variation marks the ‘main story’ as completed and that future watches whether via the same variation or a different one count as a repeat.
• Take, for example, The Evil of the Daleks that I’m watching at the moment. The DVD contains two versions of the animation (colour and black & white) , a telesnap reconstruction and the Tom Baker-narrated audiobook (as well as the one existing episode). This time I am watching the colour animation so that is what I would want to rate. Next time, I may watch the telesnap recon or listen to the audiobook. There’s also another soundtrack release with Hines narrating. Having all of these as tabs on the main story page would be the best option, in my view. In terms of searching, I think only the main story page should show and then when going to rate it (or complete it) there is a pop up which asks which variation. Then users will be alert to that option and next time may click on one of the tabs first. We should credit the site users with a modicum of intelligence, I think.
• The novelisations are a separate entity and shouldn’t count towards TV story badges. These also have their own page and a tab for any audiobook versions (some have more than one).
• The DVD ‘director’s cuts’ should be on the site as adaptations so that they don’t count towards the main story - a bit like the novelisations. I doubt there are many fans who watch the director’s cut of Planet of Fire or the omnibus of Genesis of the Daleks with a view to that being them watching the ‘real thing’. They are a curio which most people will do after having watched the proper one.
• This doesn’t apply to the stories with updated special effects because they aren’t changed at a story level.
• Are there going to be lots of people rating three versions of a story on the same day? I think in some of the scenarios above we are worrying about what one fan might do rather than thinking about what the majority would do. We’ll never be able to make the site work in exactly the way everyone wants it to so best to go with what works for the majority and tweak it if we find lots of people are finding a particular thing frustrating. You can’t please all of the people all of the time after all.
• And again, I come back to crediting users with intelligence. If they are searching for The Celestial Toymaker animation but only the TV story comes up, surely they’ll still click on that and then see the tab that says animation. No confusion necessary.
• And yeah, future experiences, regardless of medium, count as a repeat because essentially it’s still about the same narrative just using a different medium.

I like @Tian’s mock up too.

And also, we only talking about a percentage of the entire series anyway. For the majority of stories, variations aren’t even a thing let alone an issue so I think we need to go for what we think will work best across all cases for a sort of baseline user (I like Tian’s idea of casual/hardcore but do sort of think anyone using TG is probably leaning towards hardcore more anyway. I did not, however, like @MrColdStream’s AI abomination).

So TL:DR - main story page with tabs for variations where there are some. A user can then choose which one they rate. Don’t let concerns about stats/diaries override usability.

[CommanderBayban]

@deltaandthebannermen

And again, I come back to crediting users with intelligence. If they are searching for The Celestial Toymaker animation but only the TV story comes up, surely they’ll still click on that and then see the tab that says animation. No confusion necessary.

You’d be surprised how many people do not click around on sites. I can already see users asking themselves why only the TV version shows up in search when they’re looking for an audio. And I think that’s justified.

I think the search should either say “[story]” without any variation attached or just list them all out as they are currently.

But I agree for some entries the broadcast itself doesn’t need to be listed.

[Koquillion]

@deltaandthebannermen

• The DVD ‘director’s cuts’ should be on the site as adaptations so that they don’t count towards the main story - a bit like the novelisations. I doubt there are many fans who watch the director’s cut of Planet of Fire or the omnibus of Genesis of the Daleks with a view to that being them watching the ‘real thing’. They are a curio which most people will do after having watched the proper one.
• This doesn’t apply to the stories with updated special effects because they aren’t changed at a story level.

There are a couple of occasions where stories with updated special effects are changed at a story level because they’re cut differently too, as seen on a couple of the Collection set blu-rays. But we probably shouldn’t worry too much about trying to include every single ‘variation’ - just the “main” ones.

[deltaandthebannermen]

But if CT appeared as a title in their search and then the variations were really obvious on the main story page, I don’t think that’s really requiring much clicking around. And if there is the option given to choose which variation you’re rating when you click on that it will become fairly obvious pretty quickly.

And, as I say, we are talking about a minority of stories which are going to be watched by hardcore fans rather than casual viewers so they will know about the various versions.

[CommanderBayban]

I still don’t like the option of only one version being shown on the search. On two book reviewing websites I’m familiar with (where many books have multiple editions and some have audios), one has their search listing every variation and the other just shows a generic entry that encompasses everything (to which people can click in and choose their variation).

I feel like it’s even less desirable to only show one option on a site like TG. Show everything or nothing.