I'm just so tired of seeing these posts/"admissions"

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A bit of a rant. If not allowed or posted in wrong spot please remove or put it in appropriate thread.

Opened up reddit this morning and scrolled for a bit and saw this post

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Like yes were some stories each had not the greatest, sure, but every Doctor has a few of those. But the fact that it’s so taboo to say you enjoyed 13 and/or 15 is annoying.

Not gonna lie I liked 13 in the few minutes she had in Reality Was more than most of her run but that doesn’t mean she wasn’t a good Doctor or didn’t have good moments. One of my favorite scenes of hers is at the end of Ghost Monument when she is praying/hoping the Tardis will appear again and just the joy/love she has of seeing it again. And Haunting of Villa Diodati/Spyfall/Eve of the Daleks are some of my favorite episodes.

And 15 was magnetic and a delight from that first moment he appeared. He suffers a lot from his run being too short/ending too abrupt. But that last season especially he was getting so strong and really finding himself in that role and I was really looking forward to another season of him (shakes first at sky towards Disney). Legend of Ruby Sunday (discounting empire of death) was amazing, Lux, Story and the Engine great great episodes

I’m not going to say either are probably in my top 5 (15 was definitely moving towards that though had he had another season) but how/why is it still just assumed that they need to be at the bottom of everyone’s lists and the fact that you have to make a post admitting to liking them akin to saying you put mayo on ice cream (I don’t know) is really sad. I know squeaky wheels get the grease but come the hell on, is this the way it felt to be a fan of 6/8 especially before their BF “redemption”

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I think it’s completely normal to have liked 13 and 15, whilst also being aware that their doctors had the worst episodes in the show’s history.

the blame 100% rests on RTD’s shoulders (for having lost his mind lately) and Chibnall’s (for 1) sending in first drafts of scripts and 2) allowing scripts like Orphan 55 and Kerblam to reach a table read.)

I’ll never blame the actor or say the Doctor is irredeemably bad. The last time whovians did that was with Colin Baker, who thanks to having competent writers is now a fan favourite Doctor.

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Not to get combative but this sort of comment I think is part of the issue. ‘Being aware that their doctors had the worst episode in the show’s history’ is a very sweeping statement which is just as ‘dangerous’ as declaring 13 and 15 (or 6) as ‘the worst’ Doctors.

Both Doctors had some of the best episodes in the show’s history, IMO - Demons of the Punjab, The Haunting of Villa Diodati, Spyfall, War of the Sontarans, Village of the Angels, 73 Yards, The Well, Dot and Bubble.

I can quite easily point to the worst episodes of the entire show being elsewhere - The Space Pirates, Galaxy 4 or The Underwater Menace, The Mutants, The Time Monster, Underworld, The Invasion of Time, The King’s Demons, Warriors of the Deep, Attack of the Cybermen etc etc.

As much of a mess as The Reality War is, I really think I’d choose watching it a hundred times over The Time Monster which I consider to be one of the worst messes Doctor Who has ever served us.

Fandom really, really needs to stop trying to force a consensus. That’s what leads to nonsense like ‘guilty pleasures’ or the apologetic posts like Pudding is referring to.

For years, almost decades, it was ‘fact’ that the JNT years was packed with terrible stories, especially the McCoy era. The absolute nadir of Who was contained in Delta and the Bannermen and Paradise Towers and Silver Nemesis. His era was an embarassment to the show and fandom.

You hardly ever see that opinion any more - certainly not presented as a fait accompli. The same thing will, inevitably happen with 13 and 15 - in fact I’d say it already is happening with 13 at least.

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Fandom be like that. I just saw a Reddit post in this vein about Starfleet Academy.

Screw the haters, and be honest about your enjoyment, I say. Thirteen’s and Fifteen’s eras had serious issues,[1] but they were fun, so I loved ‘em.

  1. “The Reality War”… ↩︎

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I really agree with you. Everyone should be allowed to have their favourites. Do I like 13 and 15 as much as some of the other doctors? No. Do I still love them, and would watch their episodes if I had the choice, possible even choosing between them and doctors I like more? yes. You shouldn’t be attacked for having favourites. I really don’t see why 15 gets all the hate. He was amazing. 13 had a few issues, but that was more the era, and less the character, and she is still amazing too

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To be blunt, it’s down to racism. Same reason why Iris was so heavily scrutinized by the Arrowverse fandom; that she’s a woman made it even worse.

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It’s just engagement bait. Ignore it!

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I think that’s a bit of a dangerous generalisation and, a bit like ‘misogyny is the reason people hate 13’ argument. Absolutely, those two things will be a factor for a section of fans but there will be fans who dislike those Doctors for perfectly valid reasons who then feel they can’t express their dislike for fear of being labelled racist or misogynist.

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I also don’t necessarily chalk up 13 (still) to her being a woman. Only saying that because - you might not agree with how the Fugitive Doctor came about (timeless child) - but I feel like I’ve heard or read it a lot where people say they wish Jo Martin was 13 or she had full seasons as fugitive. Granted that doesn’t mean any of the scripts would’ve been that different

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I’m also of the opinion that Whitaker is a MUCH better Doctor than Martin is, even with the addition of her audio adventures. I just can’t gel with Martin’s characterisation.

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That’s fair. I don’t think it’s the primary reason—nothing like “You just hate him ‘cause he’s Black!”—but it does explain why his littlest actions are nitpicked. I feel like it did for Iris, anyway.

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Not combative at all, mate! Always find it interesting to read others opinions. The world would be very very dull if we all agreed!

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Delta has said basically everything I want to say with his two comments, but I also want to add that I think this kind of thing is unfortunately part-and-parcel of being in a fandom (or even just a human being), especially with social media nowadays. With something like Doctor Who, that’s had so many different leads, styles, formats, producers and what have you, fans are always going to try and elevate their preferred versions over others. I think we’re probably all guilty of it at times to a greater or lesser degree (I know I can be, although I try not to), what’s important in my mind is to be aware that our own individual opinions aren’t the be-all and end-all and to engage with others in good faith. That doesn’t mean you have to like everything, just not to speak for others by proclaiming something is irredeemably awful or whatever on their behalf.

But absolutely, there are certain fans who probably do have it in for Thirteen and Fifteen because of prejudice, veiled or otherwise - those people aren’t worth a response, IMO. I don’t really get how you could possibly be a “fan” of the show and still be sexist or racist, but apparently it’s possible :man_shrugging:

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I have to disagree here. This is something I’ve never done.

Anyway, back to those utterly wrong results in the best Third Story for each Doctor rankings…

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Obviously, the “present company excepted” was implied, we all know Delta and the Bannermen is the undisputed greatest story :wink:

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For some reason, fans, be they fans of 13 and 15 or not, just can’t seem to be normal about these eras. It’s just an era like any other that some people are going to like and others will dislike. I find the idea that there’s any kind of objective judgement to be made on them rather laughable to be honest. I don’t think you can judge a story in good or bad like that, or writing for that matter, it’s all subjective in the end. So I find anything that presents some kind of objective criticism or problems or bad writing rather obnoxious.

That said, I do think it can be helpful to consider in what ways unconscious biases of misogyny and racism might mean that one judges these eras more harshly than others

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I also can’t stand seeing posts like this. Acting like it’s so shocking to love 13 and 15. It’s not such a hot take or a controversial opinion. Everybody has their favourite Doctor and there is no problem until people share their love for these two.

Also I hate the fandoms obsession with always having the same opinions like why are you angry people prefer 13 and 15?? That’s their choice and how they love to engage with Doctor Who

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Everything I’d have liked to say on this subject has been said already pretty much. Delta has it spot on (wild how we can usually agree when it comes to discussing fan attitudes and this sort of thing, but when it comes to actual Doctor Who episodes…)

I’d just add, the original post shared was on reddit. Can never rule out someone just trying to get fake internet points over there.

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The sooner you stop getting it wrong about the actual episodes, the sooner we can bring fandom to it’s harmonious destiny. I mean liking The Space Pirates? That’s some powerful hallucinogens you’re using…

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I’m sorry, I couldn’t hear you over those loud Zarbi beeps you love to listen to so much.

/j

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