So yesterday, I finally finished The Talons of Weng-Chiang, a serial I started watching back in September of last year. It has taken me so long to complete because it is so ■■■■■■■ racist.
The average rating of this story on TG is above three stars, that makes no sense to me. So my question is, why do people think this is a good story, and how can they defend something so vile?
Separating the serial into individual elements makes it more bearable I think. I haven’t seen it but I can name few. Jago and Litefoot, inspirations from Sherlock Holmes, The yellowface is disgusting but I hear the villain himself is compelling.
I don’t think everyone who enjoys is it racist for one.
EDIT: Never said you did I’m just putting my stance out there.
The villain is actually another issue I have with the story, his disability being presented as something ‘frightening’
Talons is a lot of fun! A serial I revisit quite regularly!
Jago and Litefoot are the best!
Yeah I struggled with this one, very hard not to notice its issues with racism.
Well it’s still 1970-something so that’s the one case where it’s just the flaw of the times. That is RTD’s thought process with Davros and I think as long as we the audience have enough media-literacy to acknowledge that not all disabled=evil it’s simply an unfortunate element rather than a jarring flaw.
With no intent to shut conversation down, can we please discuss this topic with sensitivity and care. Yes, the racism in Talons is viciously problematic, and yes, people are well within their rights to hate it on that basis, but if we can take care to keep all conversation about the content of the text and approach this as a constructive conversation to dissect the story, that would be appreciated!
The way I (try to) look at it is that while it’s seriously problematic, that doesn’t mean that every person’s contribution to the story was problematic, so there are still things to appreciate from the excellent work many people involved did with the serial in front of and behind the camera. In fact, the majority of people involved did nothing problematic and their work shouldn’t be looked down on because of some poorly judged decisions elsewhere in the production. Saying ‘it was the way things were back then’ doesn’t excuse the fact it’s very wrong, but it’s also not fair to write off everything else about that serial based on those problems.
I think the racist material is bad, and has no place in modern media. This made in a different era, with different morals. It doesn’t excuse it, but it does allow me to give it a break.
Ultimately I don’t rile myself up about this stuff. If I did, I wouldn’t be able to watch anything old. 
Personally I don’t find it so much as riling myself up, but I just find it hard to look past. Its not subtle, its quite jarring really. That’s just how I look at it though, which is again something everyone has different tolerances to.
I’ll watch the episode to give a more indepth opinion but here’s my final take
Judging history within it’s context is important especially for media.
The Racism is ridiculous even taking the times into account.
The portrayal of disability=evil is a trope that was acceptable back then and could be seen in movies even following.
Jago and Litefoot, mainly, and the plot as a whole I remember being alright.
But I don’t think it’s that great and this serial is probably the one that is most damaged by outdated stereotypes. I had quite a bit of trouble getting through it too.
Even back then it was considered problematic. As I pointed out in my thoughts after I first watched the story:
And while the “it was the time” argument is sort of correct, it still doesn’t make the racism okay and it also wasn’t completely looked over at the time either. According to Wikipedia:
“The Chinese Canadian National Council for Equality characterised the content of the episodes as “dangerous, offensive, racist stereotyping [which] associate the Chinese with everything fearful and despicable”. As a result of their complaint to TVOntario, the Canadian channel chose not to broadcast all six episodes of the serial.”
With the cited source being an article from 1980. So yeah even people of the time knew this was bad.
I’ll admit, it’s been a short while since I last saw it, so my opinion will be less detailed than I would like, but I remember going into ‘The Talons of Weng-Chiang’ apprised of the racist elements within it. That still didn’t prepare me.
The strange thing is, even without the racism – which is a big ask, I know – the story was still very shoddily paced. It was one of those rare instances where I could feel every minute of a story refuse to go by. The only saving grace of that story is how vividly it realises Victorian London through sets and outfits, but that’s hardly high praise.
‘The Talons of Weng-Chiang’ is honestly where I mark the downturn in quality for Baker. Season 12 wasn’t flawless but had some iconic highs with ‘The Ark in Space’ and ‘Genesis of the Daleks’; Season 13 is, in my opinion, six-for-six with no story falling under a 7/10 or 8/10; but to say that Season 14 was just as good if not better than Season 13 feels so wrong considering that this is the last serial of that season and, more broadly, that era. Season 15 as a whole is a better experience than ‘The Talons of Weng-Chiang’.
(Edit: I think my experience was also made worse by the fact that I don’t care for Jago or Litefoot. That’s probably an unpopular opinion, but they left no impression on me when the story was done and did little in the story to get or keep my interest. They’re just… There.)
In the context of this story alone, I think I agree. I never really understood why they were chosen for a spin-off. I actually love their spin-off series and think they’re wonderful characters therein - Big Finish clearly identified things in their original appearance that went right over my head though because I can take them or leave them in Talons most of the time.
I’m glad to hear that they get something in Big Finish to warrant a spin-off. As it stands, they’re probably some of the most overrated side characters in Doctor Who, in my opinion.
Nostalgia which a lot of other 1970s stories are judged by as a lot of the kids who grew up watching that became dominant voices in the fandom and Talon’s atmosphere compared to every other Baker story probably left a bigger impression than most.
Also speaking as a fan of Jago & Litefoot (seriously that spin off is brilliant) they’re not super noteworthy in the serial itself in fact they’re not even really a duo, a lot of the interesting stuff about them and even the fact they’re a team came from the Big Finish spin off and not Talons.
I’m always a bit concerned when I see people say they just ignore the racism, because that is a serious issue that should be acknowledged instead of just being swept under the rug.
Also, @FumblingFoamasi I found Jago and Litefoot to be really boring characters too. Sounds like the audios are what really make them interesting.
I don’t ignore the racism or the problematic aspects, but I can still acknowledge them and enjoy the story.
To be fair, I don’t think anybody’s said they’d advocate ignoring the racism. As @Tlotoxl says, there’s more to enjoy beyond that, but enjoying other aspects of it doesn’t mean sweeping the problems under the rug. Even by engaging in this thread, we’re actively preventing any rug-sweeping.
I could have phrased that better, I’m not necessarily referring to people in this thread, but there are folk who do this.