28th May apparently
EDIT: it is may 22nd, i just can’t read
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Exactly! They made Kid and Wynn be super super wrong in trying to kill billions of people, but if anyone could show them compassion it would be the Doctor. I want him to say he’s gonna make sure the company pays for what they did, even if he despises Kid’s actions. If instead they’re gonna have the Doctor get very mad (justifiably so) at this literal genocide survivor instead and actively hurt the guy, I want that to be seriously questioned by his companion. But we got… a sad song?
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Oh, I really don’t agree. I think that they handle it so much better than Kerblam. In Kerblam, the company comes out as the good guys in the end, but in this, it is pretty clear that the company is bad, but that does not justify terrorism. I even wrote yesterday that this episode was Kerblam done right.
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For me the way RTD misused Sutekh felt far more “important” than adhering to EU content does.
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That sort of depends on the nature of the Doctor and Susan’s eventual reunion.
I would absolutely buy it if they said that the last time they met was during the Five Doctors, or even if they kind of ignore that and choose to focus on how the Doctor made a decision to leave Susan behind on war ravaged future Earth.
I love the Eighth Doctor and Lucie stuff with Susan, but that can easily exist in a separate continuity for me - it’s just one of those timey-wimey things
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I feel like in an already overstuffed season finale (we have Conrad, The Rani, Mrs Flood, whatever blew up the TARDIS, whatever blew up Earth, and now Susan) any attempt to say “remember when I was the Eighth Doctor and we hung out, and Lucie and Alex were there? Oh yeah let’s explain who Alex is…” would just totally derail it even more.
So I’m fine with not explaining that and just talking about how he left her in a war-torn future Earth.
The Toymaker made a jigsaw of his history, it’s fine for anything to have fallen through the cracks.
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I would even say that it would be a missed opportunity not to adress that he left her and said that he would come back but never did. I would be disappointed if they didn’t do that.
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I’m not saying Kid’s actions are justifiable (they aren’t). I just think portraying it as evil corporation commiting what is seemingly genocide agaisnt a people and rather than the epsiode actually having the corporation face consequences for their actions as @mndy says we have someone sing a song as the ending.
As I said Kid’s actions are NOT justifiable. But they are understandable. We see how Helions are discriminated against with Wynn being told most people dont employ Helions, and Cora having to cut her horns off to hide the fact she’s a Helion, as well as Mike and Gary telling the Doctor abiut how evil Helions are. This shows they’re victims of not only crimes by the corporation, but also dehumanised and vilified more broadly.
So the fact that the ending doesnt show the corporation (wish they gave us a better name) being punished or face any meaningful repercussions just doesn’t sit well with me.
We get a single Helion (Cora) being accepted, but nothing more. It can definitely be argued that this is symbolic of Helions being accepeted more generally after the story ends. But, we aren’t shown this and the seemingly deep-rooted prejudices aren’t addressed.
As you said, its clear the company are the bad guys. So my issue is they don’t receive the typical bad guy treatment. What happens to them afterwards? Nothing.
I really hope we see Kid or Hel return in the future, solely so we can get a proper resolution.
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I’m really not sure how I feel about this episode. I probably enjoyed myself the most out of all the episodes this season, and there was some stuff I really liked. I thought the side characters was interesting, especially Cora (I saw the actress in a musical a couple of years ago and was very surprised to see her in Doctor Who!). I’ve never seen or cared about Eurovision so all that stuff completely went over my head.
I felt that the episode started off well, and then got a bit confusing. It looked like Belinda was going to get to be proactive and do stuff, but then the Doctor came back and she didn’t do much, which is unfortunate.
Also, I don’t really get her characterisation here? She seems to like the Doctor way to much, given how sharp she was with him in TRR, and she forgave him WAY WAY WAY too easily for torturing Kid, which seemed really out of character for the Doctor. I do like it when the Doctor shows some darkness, but this felt unearned. Kid didn’t actually kill 3 trillion people, even he if intended to.
I felt that Kid’s motive and the reveal that the company were terrible came out of nowhere. If the world building had been developed more and we’d found out why people hated the Hellions (other than having horns 
), that reveal would have been more impactful. (The name Poppy in the advert seems deliberate though 
)
And now about the Susan and the Rani…
SUSAN!!! I’m so glad and excited she came back!!! However, her cameos were pretty sudden, like why is the Doctor having visions of his granddaughter now?? It felt pretty random, like she was only there to help the Doctor not freeze in space. I really really hope all of Susan’s EU stuff isn’t ignored, because if that can be referenced, maybe other EU stuff will turn up…? Like BENNY 
The Rani!!! I accidentally spoiled myself for this so I kept waiting for it and it felt way too important to be tacked on at the end. The main thing is I can’t believe everyone was right about mrs flood being the rani??? Honestly it feels so wild and it could be really good…if RTD actually sticks with her characterisation and doesn’t just make her the Master 2.0
On the note of the Rani returning, I don’t understand that RTD wants to make this current era a jumping on point. So far we’ve had Beep the Meep, the Toymaker, Sutekh, Mel (I think that’s all) and now Susan and the Rani?? Including many classic who references that 95% of audiences won’t get is a weird move.
As I’ve written this giant ramble, I’ve realised that maybe I like this episode less than I originally thought. So far this season really hasn’t been working for me which is really really sad 
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I felt like this in JttW with Villengard who also don’t get punished. I am still hoping that they will be the big villain in a season soon.
The corporation did not have a big enough presence in the episode for me to feel like that. They just felt evil. I don’t se how they could have punished them in this episode when we don’t know what they are, even it was very clear that they were bad.
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Yeah, while episodes like The Almost People and Oxygen didn’t show the corporations being taken down, it did show people standing up to them, and left their fate on a more positive (for us) note.
I think this is the intent, but also if that was the intent, I don’t think you needed the whole corporation and genocide angle, you could just have the Hellions be social outcasts, who are shunned through baseless fear, instead of introducing an evil corporation then really doing nothing with it. Though the connection to poppies does make me wonder if they’ll be touched on over the next 2 episodes.
I think this will be an episode that will either look better or worse in retrospective with the rest of the season. Though personally, the corporation isn’t my biggest issue with the episode, so who knows if it’ll change for me.
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It’s a very unfortunate case, I think a lot of people, myself included, drew parallels between the corporation and certain real life countries, and it’s very topical given it’s the Eurovision episode and what’s happened at Eurovision. Though given this episode was mostly written in 2023, I don’t think the parallel was intended, or at least not to the decree that some people are reading it. I think Doctor Who is catching extra flak for the poor timing of the episode, which while I don’t think is the writing team’s fault, I think regardless the messaging was handled slightly messy.
No shade to anyone here, you’re all wonderful and nice people, but talking about this episode feels like walking through a minefield, can it be next week already 
.
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As Susan’s number one fan, I enjoyed the episode myself, as for the Rani reveal, I’m fine with the bi-regeneration if we ever get an actual explanation for it and it ties into the overall story.
Personally, given how genetic modification is the Rani’s entire deal, I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s turns out she is responsible for it and the was the person we saw picking up the Master’s gold tooth in the Giggle.
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The Demons of the Punjab end credits music at the end 
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Not Katie Boyle?
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Whilst i am not a big fan of this era,
Its great to see classic who companions get one last hurrah per say
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Didn’t even catch this but someone pointed out to me that Belinda’s home arc hasnt been really getting developed for a while now,like since ep4 i’d say,like in ep5 shes barely there and in ep6 she feels like a different character,honestly feels like a missed opportunity,and this doesnt mean i dont like her no,I like Belinda but i feel like she should’ve gotten mad at The Doctor in this one.Ep7 and Ep8 are all on Earth so I expect Belinda to be fully okay with everything,and this is why I don’t think 8 episode works for an arc like this,idk what are your thoughts on this whole thing?
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I think this is the thing though. The episode can’t necessarily be responsible for what people are reading into it. At a base level it is a family science fiction adventure. The ‘message’ is a layer and people will always interpret it in different ways dependent on what is happening in the world at the point they are watching it and also dependent on their own life experience and knowledge.
I personally was completely unaware of the parallel with Morrocanoil so was never going to draw that out of the episode whereas it might be glaringly obvious to someone else.
I don’t particularly chime with Doctor Who stories being accused of ‘messy messaging’ because its not what the show is there for. And really, the show can’t win. When it sets its stall out clearly, it gets criticised for that. When it allows room for interpretation, deliberately or not, it’s accused of being ‘messy’ or not delivering the message that some people decree as the ‘correct’ one.
And this isn’t directed at you, just the general ‘political’ reactions we’ve been seeing a lot this season.
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