It’s not really headcanon if he wrote it. That was his intention when he wrote it…?
5 Likes
But he didn’t write ‘time was shrouding her’ into the script - unless I missed it. If he’s having the expain his thinking in the commentary over something which is a bit of an odd visual choice (when married with the revelation of her identity) then I think it’s a bit ‘lazy’.
12 Likes
If something was his intention when he wrote it, he should have written it…
13 Likes
Tbh with the tone he said it I don’t think it was his intention, I think it was just kinda a hand-wavey explanation for something that he doesn’t really think matters (and I don’t really think it does either. Like I said earlier, I feel like a cloak is a reasonable enough thing for someone to wear if it’s cold and they’re trying to hide their identity)
9 Likes
I don’t think we need everything spelled out?
For example the whistle that controlled the TARDIS… they cut the explanation of where the Doctor got that from and what it does, to save time and not ruin a fast-moving scene. Does that mean Russell didn’t write it therefore it’s headcanon?
4 Likes
I think that’s a different situation though. Not explaining why a 15 year old was dressed in a spooky cloak isn’t the same as not ruining the pace of a scene. There are lots of reasons why leaving stuff out for the audience to fill in is absolutely fine. I just don’t think the cloak (which I now realise I’m seemingly fixated on) is one of those things.
8 Likes
What I on a rewatch is a bit disappointed about is that the Doctor used that whistle and it wasn’t a good boy K-9 unit that came out from under the console 
12 Likes
It’s really not that important 
I have no idea how he would explain it was Time shrouding her, unless he wrote:
Doctor: The reason we couldn’t see Ruby’s Mum’s face, and also the reason she wore a crazy cloak, was that time was shrouding her!
I’m sure that would have been a great scene to add in, lol
3 Likes
See, that wasn’t so hard was it 
- you did it and you’re not even a writer…
No, I get your point, it isn’t really important but I can see why people who felt a little ‘lead up the garden path’ by the Ruby mystery may feel her spooky, fantasy-leaning hooded cloak contributed to that.
7 Likes
then tell the viewer within the show! He can have all the intentions he wants but if they aren’t explicit in the final script he may as well not bother.
6 Likes
Or even implicit… the idea of the cloak being time covering her up is, I feel, not even subtextual. As everyone has been saying, it really felt like we were going to get a hood drop kind of a reveal, rather than a whatever the pointing and DNA testing stuff was meant to be
11 Likes
Yeah, I absolutely expected a hood drop kind of reveal but maybe, just maybe RTD was deliberately subverting that.
7 Likes
hey look I did the thing, I subverted the expectation! 
6 Likes
exactly, anything to make the situation more complicated. it’s why the reveal doesn’t feel particularly rooted in Ruby as a character for me, its exactly what she wants and the first thing we find out that she wants, its completely perfect for her so it doesn’t challenge her as a character at any point
7 Likes
something something Peri 
3 Likes
https://tardis.guide/story/empire-of-death-tv/transcript/
DOCTOR: She was important… because we think she’s important. That’s how everything happens, every war, every religion, every love story. We invest things with significance. So while the whole of creation was turning around her, it made her sheer existence more powerful than Time Lords and gods. In the end, the most important person in the universe… was the most ordinary. A scared little girl… making her baby safe.
Three thoughts:
- What a wonderful & powerful message as a whole (despite the fact that the presentation of the message wasn’t working for me at the moment and in the context in which it was presented.)
- More than one message in this message, even as the discussion focuses on the “ordinary person” part.
- For me, the - intellectually/philosophically - more interesting part is actually what I marked in bold: “[…] because we think she’s important. That’s how everything happens, every war, every religion, every love story. We invest things with significance. […]”. There’s a real deep lesson right there. Looking outward at the world - how many bad but also good things happen just because that’s a deep truth of human nature? But - stepping a step back - also looking inward: isn’t this thread a living embodiment of the principle that because we think something is important, it becomes important? I don’t know what RTD planned or didn’t plan, thought or didn’t think. And we will never truly know, no matter what was and will be said after the fact. But this message with all its layers is there, that’s a fact, and as much as I think the implementation of transporting this message wasn’t good at all - hat tip to RTD for giving me such deep thoughts via his story.
10 Likes
I’m still not quite sure on the order of events.
Ruby doesn’t know who her birth mother is. So that’s important to her. But not enough that it creates snow and a ‘song in her heart’ etc.
The Doctor travels to the Church, bringing Sutekh with him. Does the mere fact that Sutekh is here make the moment become magical?
Or is it later, when they use the Time Window, and we get a second TARDIS (the Remembered TARDIS) on the scene, is that what causes it to become a special moment?
If that’s the case, isn’t that a paradox, because the only reason they used the Time Window is that there was the snow and the song etc.
Or am I missing something?
My head hurts lol
10 Likes
Anything that happens, happens.
Anything that, in happening, causes something else to happen, causes something else to happen.
Anything that, in happening, causes itself to happen again, happens again.
It doesn’t necessarily do it in chronological order, though.
– Mostly Harmless, Douglas Adams
11 Likes
Woah! This topic blew up. I wanted to add to my earlier comments, taking on board some of what’s been said, but I have to admit I just haven’t been able to read through everything.
My wife isn’t super into Doctor Who, but she likes Ncuti, so she’s been watching along for this season. She hasn’t made much in the way of comments, but even she said “There’s got to be a reset switch” when all of UNIT got dusted. I wasn’t particularly bothered by this as Doctor Who has a history of resets going back to the first season (although admittedly not full on resurrections). I was interested to see where the story was going to go, but it is problematic when you’ve wiped out all life across space and time, as it gives you no one to interact with. I know that the episode was based more on feelings than logical plotting, but for me, it didn’t quite work on that level either. I wasn’t touched by the kind woman with the spoon and the dead child. I thought it was well acted and I understand the need for the change of pace at that point, but I just felt that it dragged. It was clear that everything had gone at that point. It didn’t quite make sense that she was still there, but she soon got dusted anyway. I din’t feel engaged by the side step.
I was with Mel 100% though. Even though her plot line came to nothing in the end, I was thoroughly invested in what was happening to her. I couldn’t really buy that Sutekh was interested in who Ruby’s mum was, given that his only motivation was to wipe out all life. I was more irritated that we didn’t get a similar exchange between the Doctor and Sutekh over the nature of good and evil as the one in Pyramids. I feel that Pyramids of Mars works because Sutekh is paralysed and yet still so powerful. I also think that the simplicity of the black and red mask in Pyramids was far more successful than the CGI dog crouched over the TARDIS. I enjoyed the cultural appropriation gag but I think we lost any sense of what the Osirans were, which meant we lost much of a sense of what drove Sutekh. His eventual defeat didn’t really feel earned, although that’s also true of Pyramids I guess. I didn’t mind about death x death = life, even if it doesn’t stand up to much scrutiny. Shooting a dead person doesn’t bring them to life, but, as a hand wavy solution, it wasn’t so bad. I’d say the resolution felt most like Last of the Timelords.
I was ok about the Ruby’s mum stuff. I would have preferred a bit more weight given to the Sundays as her real nurturing family and I agree that they seemed somewhat sidelined, which is unfortunate. I was on board about her mum being somebody ordinary, but I also agree that the enigmatic hooded figure pointing at the street sign stretched credibility. I could buy a teenage girl wearing a hoodie, but not a cowl, and the pointing didn’t really make any sense to me. I think a frightened fifteen year old girl would have got her head down and got out of there as quickly as possible. So, the mystery was contrived, but not to the point of irritation.
My biggest problem with RTD’s finales is with pacing. THe main plot was resolved very quickly once the Doctor’s plan was initiated, then we had a very long coda to play with the feels about Ruby’s mum. I got similar vibes to the endless goodbyes of the tenth doctor in End of Time. Despite the discovery of Ruby’s genetic parents being important, the relative weight between that and her adoptive family wasn’t explored at all. And finding her mum and being accepted straight away seemed a bit jarring. Instead of there being stuff to unpack we got a kind of syrupy smaltz that just felt a little uncomfortable.
I think I’d quite like to see a season finale that doesn’t try to destroy and rebuild the universe while solving a season long character arc. Perhaps something smaller both physically and emotionally would land better with me? We don’t need everything and the kitchen sink every year.
However, I still enjoyed much of it. I just felt less engaged than I’d been for the rest of the season. I disagree with describing the writing as substandard or lazy; it just didn’t land for me this time. I’m pleased that it worked for others and I hope it worked for the target audience, which is still children and families. I accept that being a fan of this show in my fifties makes me an outlier in the audience. But I still enjoy it and I loved most of this season. I just felt that this episode didn’t have the same magic that the rest of the season gave me.
You win some, you lose some, but you carry on loving the show.
13 Likes