This is true, but what about the existence of this short story as a response to your belief that it was not implied in 2005 that 8 destroyed gallifrey?
Surely it gives quite convincing evidence of writer’s intentions?
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- Romance ~ doesn’t bother me, but I didn’t care for the endless River Song stuff.
- War Doctor ~ didn’t like him at the time, but now I’m fairly indifferent. I still envisage McGann as the Doctor in the Time War and, in my head, he regenerated into Eccleston. But when I see War Doctor stuff, it doesn’t bother me either.
- Fugitive Doctor ~ Love Jo Martin but her Doctor is pretty pointless and does nothing for me. I might’ve liked it more had she been between Troughton and Pertwee.
- Timeless Child ~ absolute bollocks.
- Bringing Gallifrey back in 2013 ~ another thing I hated at the time (didn’t like the portrayal, or the ridiculous “Daleks shoot at the planet and it vanishes so they wipe themselves out” way it ended but hey. I didn’t mind the fact it was back during Capaldi’s era though, and I felt Moffat did a good job of still keeping it at arm’s length, only using it if he had a good enough character or story idea.
- Destroying Gallifrey off-screen ~ absolute bollocks, and poorly done.
- Bigeneration ~ absolute nonsense, but this is the same writer who created the Metacrisis nonsense too in Series 4. I prefer to pretend that 14 regenerated normally into 15, plain and simple.
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In Doctor Who, both accounts could be true. It is a convoluted, complicated, complex Time War after all. And RTD’s own words prior to the release of this during Lockdown were: “All stories are true.”
I’m not a fan, still, and my headcanon is still that 8 was in the Time War and regenerated into 9, and I feel that’s what the intention of 2005 was, but I’m just playing devil’s advocate here and saying maybe that did happen. But then so did this. Wibbly wobbly and all that.
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But that’s a story he was writing in 2013?
He had left the show as showrunner before that time.
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I think some of the most interesting and exciting stories are the ones listed above.
Trying to protect the canon is stifling creativity.
I prefer the show to make dramatic big changes that get people talking.
I dislike when all people do is complain but not suggest interesting alternatives!
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Hehe I know, I know, but I wanted to bait you into explaining why you liked them so much!
Honestly, my opinion is very similar to yours! I would add that it may have gone on for a bit too long, and that River’s devotion was just so sad to watch when the Doctor wasn’t really on the same page (ha!) as her. He seems annoyed by it, even, at some points, like on ‘Wedding’. And yeah, I also see that by the time of ‘Husbands’ he really cares for her, but there is also pity and guilty there. In the end, to me it’s less of a ‘beautiful love story’ than a tragedy. Like, ‘oh, how sad that her life was ruined by people who just wanted to defeat him, here’s a consolation prize: he’s nice and thinks you’re neat!’
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Yes I agree with you there. It’s a tragic story.
That’s why I love her in the audio dramas, because she gets to spread her wings and do her own adventures, we get to hear her live a full and interesting life, and it doesn’t (always) revolve around the Doctor.
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A more or less related question: you know the Gallifreyan woman in ‘The End of Time’, that one covering her face and having a whole wordless conversation with Ten from behind Rassilon’s back? I always thought that was supposed to be Romana. I think RTD said it was supposed to be the Doctor’s mother (lol), but I wondered if the Romaniacs here on TG know or have any thoughts about this.
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In fairness, they could’ve still brought her back without needing Gallifrey back. Imagination is all you need in sci-fi. She could’ve been fobwatched somewhere like the Master, hiding out, and undiscovered. Or she could’ve been in E-Space, as per the end of Season 18, etc.
It’s a shame Chibnall re-nuked Gallifrey though and said “lol yeah all the Time Lords dead again too” because it just feels like it’s cheapened everything and bringing a Time Lord back might need an extra hoop to jump through now. And if you swerve it - “oh, some Time Lords escaped the Master” - then it manages to devalue Chibnall’s own re-nuking even further. It feels like a bit of a mess, all told.
Unless RTD brings in the “Nine Gallifreys” thing from the expanded universe and blows everyone’s mind 
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I think its been said that Moffat thought about having it be Mcgann and at another point Eccleston. But after Eccleston declined the BBC wanted a big name
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Controversial Decisions are pretty much one of the constant Thing, regardless if we are talking about the Revival, the EU, or even some Classic Series. That said, the revived Series strikes the most in that regard. My Thoughts on them are like this:
- -I am fine with Gallifrey being destroyed, did it have to be destroyed again? No. But I am fine with it really, however if they decide to bring it back, which they will do, I hope they stick with it. The only Thing that bothers me about is how much like a Comic Death it feels. In Comics they constantly kill beloved Heroes, Villains or who have you but also constantly bring them. So I really hope (and let’s face it, eventually somebody will sit in the Chair and does it) when its brought back we stick with it.
- Bringing it back in 2013’s Day was a good. I was they did stick with it but oh well, just please don’t constantly kill it and bring it back
- I think the Bigeneration is a horrible Concept that simply doesn’t work for me. I am fine with it for this one Time, but I don’t want it to return. In regards of possible other bigenerated Doctors, I am not sure if we should believe into that, since this was simply a Comment RTD made on the Commentary, nothing is set in stone, but if it happened, then that’s just even more stupid. I could go in a ramble why I don’t like the Concept but ehh, I don’t think most people would want me to ramble about it.
- I am fine with 9-10/Rose. It makes sense, I am not a big Fan of TenRose in Series 2 at all, I think they aren’t quite to my liking. I know they are supposed to be like that, but I really simply don’t like it and in general aren’t the biggest Fans of Romances with the Doctor. How it ended in Series 4 is a bit absurd, but eh it’s fine.
- Used to hate it, nowadays, I think I am kinder to it. As long as those pre-Hartnell Doctors don’t act like your 11 or 8, and we get to explore a much different kind of Doctor/s, I am totally fine with it. The Moment they feel too much like any revived Series Doctors is the Moment I don’t like it at all. At the very least, their Characterization should feel closer to some classic ones than the more ‘Hero’-Type Figure of the Revival. I am still a bit indifferent about the Idea as I don’t like some Aspects of it (and honestly I am a bit annoyed about how many people try to fit in Fatal Death, Cushing etc as Pre-Hartnell Doctors, which makes no sense at all but that’s probably a different Talk entirely)
- I do like the War Doctor, even if I do think we should have had 8 in his Place. Love Hurt and I am very curious about delving into his and Carleys Audios proper, but yeah no, wish it was 8. That said, the Performance is quite good, so I am more fine than I would be otherwise.
- Fugitive is one Incarnation I still need to figure out, as long as we get to explore some different kind of Doctor Moments with her, I am totally happy and excited to see what they can with her in the EU. Martin was stellar onscreen.
- I am surprised to see no Mention of the Impossible Girl Arc, as I find this probably the most egregious example of a controversial lore addition. I love Clara. I don’t like this Idea or even how it’s handled at all.
- Even more stupid is the Idea of Sutekh being there since Pyramids, why not just since WBY??? I don’t get this Change and I find it a bit dumb to think about this Decision, probably less a controversial thing than others, but I really did not like that
There is probably more, but I will leave it at that. To summarize a bit, there are some Decisions which I really did not like due to their portrayal, some I feel more “eh” about and some. That said even if I don’t like quite a few, it’s one of the rare Constants of the Show, like I said before in many Ways that’s a Thing present in a lot of Who. For a good while, it was heavily implied that the Doctor might just be Human in the first Doctor’s Era. The TV Movie had the Half Human Line, the whole Idea with the Other in 7’s Era/VNA. Even the Idea of Regeneration has changed in some ways. Of course, some of this could be argued as simply Lore Addition, but well there is also a Point to be made that any of them are also just simply lore Changing. While I may not like it always, I think it’s just a Thing that will happen with the Show at least once in every Era.
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Well… to me, what feels unrealistic is that the Master managed to kill all of a race whose distinguishing characteristic is that they can travel in time and space at once on their home planet.
There should be time lords all over the place, just without a home planet now.
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I’ve heard that as well.
I think it makes sense not to pursue McGann after Eccleston declined (if this is what happened).
Much as I like the TV movie it happened 17 years prior to Day of the Doctor and wasn’t the success it was hoped it would be at the time. And John Hurt is a much bigger draw to a wider audience than Paul McGann is and was.
TV isn’t just made for the fans, even an anniversary episode, and it was most likely the smartest decision to bring in John Hurt in the 50th when looking at viewing figures and economics.
I also think “The Night of the Doctor” was absolutely amazing and honestly the best I could hope for for the Eighth Doctor. I genuinely didn’t expect him to get a cameo in Power of the Doctor - but was really happy for it 
And I loved that reveal at the end of the Name of the Doctor with the War Doctor and the whole “What the ■■■■ is going on here??” situation between the Name of the Doctor and the Day of the Doctor - that sort of hype is pure gold 
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Yeah I agree.
A future writer could change things up a bit by having Gallifrey stay gone, but pockets of displaced Time Lords scattered about the universe. Maybe some could try and rebuild, some could stay low-key and hidden, some could change their entire culture, etc. Would be a nice way to evolve the Time Lords.
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From a “product to sell” point of view, I think you’re spot on as to why the BBC wanted a big name. Especially if there were also plans afoot to get this into cinemas as well.
I also think, War Doctor opinions aside, it led to some forced creativity on Moffat’s part - and I think he integrated John Hurt pretty well, all things considered.
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Yeah, I had an idea a while back about a planet that had a colony on it called “New Gallifrey” of survivors. Only it’s run by the Rani, and she’s successfully gotten them to blame the Doctor for Gallifrey’s destruction.
Also had the idea for the antagonist of the week at some point to turn out to be Romana, who heard a warped account of who was to blame for Gallifrey falling (probably from New Gallifrey).
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I don’t mind romance with the Doctor as long as it’s not with a companion. Love the War and the Fugitive Doctor. Same with the Timeless Child. It’s a fun concept and doesn’t interfere with anything since at the end of the day the Doctor’s memories were wiped of it. Bigeneration is okay. It’s fine with the 14th/15th Doctor. Should it apply to every Doctor? Probably not. I used to have a much more positive opinion on it but it’s shifted over time.
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I am very unhappy about pre-Hartnell Doctors. I won’t put it any more strongly than unhappy because hate is pointless, and I’m not a hater. Someone further up the thread put it very well saying it placed a barrier between them and the Fugitive Doctor, and I feel the same way. If Fugitive turns out to be from the future or a parallel universe or something, then fantastic, but until then I just can’t engage with the character (which is a great shame because Jo Martin is fabulous). I’m prepared to accept this is silly of me, but I just can’t help but feel Timeless Child is disrespectful to Hartnell. Sorry.
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Hm, I mean, Tecteun and Division wiped the Timeless Child/Fugitive’s memories and forced them to regenerate into baby/kid (?) Hartnell Doctor, right? Sooo in theory these pre-Hartnell Doctors could have been a lot like the Doctor we know, or could be completely different, as much as regeneration and a whole new upbringing can account for. But yes, I think characterizing them differently from the Doctors we know would be at the very least the more interesting way to go about it. We do have an abundance of them, after all.
OMG, yes. 100% with you on the Impossible Girl stuff. It was not a bad idea, but it was sooo overdone. And Clara was more interesting after it was over!
Yes, it’s very dumb and could easily have been fixed like you say. However, I’m not super mad because I adore the memes that came from it so much. That one with the three Sutekhs in the TARDISes in ‘Day of the Doctor’ looking at each other like 
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And correct me if I’m wrong, but it relies on a retcon too ~ at the end of Pyramids, Sutekh is sent back along a time tunnel, whereas the TARDIS would’ve travelled in the time vortex. The two are different entities. (In Tales of the TARDIS, they obviously change the vortex VFX to suggest it’s the time vortex, but that’s a retcon.) Usually I’d overlook stuff like that, but they went and said “the doggo been sat on the TARDIS all along” and hilariously overcooked it.
Some funny memes around the time of airing, though.
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