For sure you are right that a lot of Lucie’s series’ are season 12 all over again, and I’d totally agree that a lot of the nostalgia villains don’t really work - the Wirrn episode is definitely not my favourite. I can totally appreciate why it doesn’t work for you, and I even agree with a lot of the points you brought up - some of the characterisation issues are just bizarre.
But it still holds a special place in my heart as my first BF series, and I do think Lucie is utterly wonderful as a character by and large
Yeah, I want to be clear, I do like some of this era, just much less than half.
The stuff with Lucie and the Monk is excellent. The whole conciet of Deimos/The Ressurection of Mars, with the moral obligations of time travel, and the Doctor and the Monk swapping companions at the end, is incredible. I also love Prisoner of the Sun and The Cannibalists, I even have a soft spot for Immortal Beloved, it just feels to me like this era’s bland with the occasional good story, rather than good with the occasional dud.
Also there’s something about coming off the back of the monthly range and the Divergent Universe arc, which was incredibly bold and weird and boundary pushing, to swing hard the other way and do something that’s incredibly not that, that just rubs me the wrong way
I think here you are right but it probably has more to do with Doctor Who stories - and their fans - being a broad church and whilst some thrive on the experimental boundary pushing, some just want ‘normal’ Doctor Who. Neither is wrong.
I’ll say this, anyone claiming to be a “true fan” as some sort of misplaced superiority complex is not worth paying the slightest bit of attention to, and nothing but irritation and annoyance will be the result of engaging with them.
Let them stew in their own spiteful ways and pop on a Doctor Who that will bring you joy instead
With the, shall we say, “explosive” ending to the Lucie Miller series, the Eighth Doctor turned to boxsets. The first was the self-contained Dark Eyes which introduced new companion Molly O’Sullivan. Dark Eyes was then stretched out further into another three boxsets. What are your thoughts on Dark Eyes, Molly and the advent of the boxset era?
I’m a sucker for a story arc so I like box sets but when they are always a universe-ending catastrophe it can get a little annoying. Or when the same villain keeps coming back over and over *cough* The Eleven *cough*
But I also like how box sets can give the stories a shape and structure that the Main Range seems to be missing for me at the moment.
I like the first Dark Eyes but it’s clear they started to make it up as they went (and they were hurt by the original actress then choosing not to return later on). The later box sets do give us Alex MacQueen’s Master and the return of Liv Chenka, though, so they can’t be all bad.
The Eleven is one of those BF creations who they seem to love and yet I struggle to see the appeal - see also the Infinite Warriors, the Galyari, Vienna Salvatori and Mary Shelley.
I really dislike the Eleven - I think the concept is interesting but I think the quirky ‘evil because of my multiple personalities’ thing gets tired quite quickly.
Honestly, I find a lot of the 8DA boxset series quite hard to follow, something about how bombastic the 16 parts are, or how they’re both trying to be monster of the week and big story at the same time, or lack of discernable throughline perhaps - I’ve never really quite put my finger on it but I could not tell you what the story overall of DE/DC/Rav/Stranded is. Which is possibly a me problem ¯_ (ツ)_/¯
But I do love all the companions introduced after Lucie, especially Helen <3
The boxset era continued with 16-part epics becoming the norm for a while. After Dark Eyes came Doom Coalition, Ravenous and Stranded. Liv Chenka became a companion in Dark Eyes 2, somewhat replacing Molly, and we met Helen Sinclair in Doom Coaltion 1. Were these epics successful?
After Stranded, the boxsets with Eight/Liv/Helen took a looser story structure, moving away from epic arcs. Was this the right move? Or are the epic arcs more to your liking?
I for one am not a huge fan of the epic arcs, so I’ve been really enjoying the little boxsets they’ve released lately for Liv and Helen. I do think they are a wonderful team, and it’s been brilliant seeing Helen get some characterisation again after it was so fully squandered by Stranded
I loved the epic arcs, but it’s time for something different. The looser sets have some good stories, but they don’t feel new. All 3 of the current 8 runs feel like they’re afraid to stand on their own. The Liv and Helen stuff is sneakily set just before the last scene of Stranded, keeping the status quo instead of exploring what 8 and Helen are like on their own. The new Time War stuff sneakily ties in with the end of the Lucie Miller range. Even the stuff with Audacity is sneakily secretly set during the main range with Charley instead of doing it’s own thing. It feels like there’s an unwillingness to break new ground, relying instead on past stuff they know works
Again, I like the stories we’re getting, and I think the new Liv and Helen stuff is especially strong, it just doesn’t feel new
@elicienwalker this is exactly what we’ve been saying for a while, that it feels like the 8DAs, though they are fun, have been going round and round in circles of late
Oh yeah, I know, and I actually wholly agree. And like what we said the other day regarding Ravenous’ story arc, it just wasn’t… structurally sound, for starters. So yeah, no, I’m a loose story enjoyer as well. But with Stranded’s ending looming at the end the stakes are low and plots feel too familiar. I loved The Love Vampires and Albie’s Angels because they actually felt sort of fresh [and I am forever weak for the idea that Weeping Angels have loved ones too] but for the rest it’s just felt like that, yeah. And agreed, it’s nice to have Helen in the center again instead of having her be pushed to the back like in Stranded.
I’m cautiously curious to Echoes for it’s stories, the idea that we might be introduced to Helen’s Dad (re: another character in the castlist being named Sinclair) has got me going but I am nowhere near as hyped as I used to be, or was with say… The Robots when that released. I asked days off from work so I could listen to them immediately. Don’t really feel like doing that anymore, which is a big tell for me personally.
So my hot take is that Liv (and to a far lesser extent, Helen) is the reason that 8’s adventures just feel so stagnant and samey since Stranded. It’s why I took to Audacity immediately (a companion for 8 who doesn’t just exist to be sarcastic and is interesting? Bestill my heart!) and why I groaned when Echoes was announced. It feels more like BF just wants to keep working with Nicola Walker than to keep Liv around. Personally, I think it’s time for Liv to leave the TARDIS and for us to see Eight and Helen traveling solo for a few boxsets before retiring this era of Eight’s adventures.
I love Liv and Helen as much as anyone, but I have to say I do agree, it’s time for them to have some new dimension that they are just not getting. I found Stranded pretty uninspiring especially for Helen’s total nonutility to the plot, so I’ve very much enjoyed seeing her get some well needed character development, but I certainly was disappointed to find we weren’t getting a solo Helen and Eight box.
Plus, I can’t really see any way of Liv leaving the Tardis to go back to Baker Street without Helen dying ¯_ (ツ)_/¯ not that I want that bc I loveeee her but, that is the only theory I have that makes sense to me
but I am nowhere near as hyped as I used to be, or was with say… The Robots when that released. I asked days off from work so I could listen to them immediately. Don’t really feel like doing that anymore, which is a big tell for me personally.