ICMG - A 'Counter-Measures' Thread

TAG is kind of important to s4 but I’d suggest starting with s1 and listening to TAG after s2 or 3

also YAY we got another one <3

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I think the way I’d describe it is a prequel? Not a perfect introduction (too little Allison :pensive_face:) but it does give you a good look at the characters, just with some differing dynamics because Ace and the Doctor are also there. If you also want a doctor adventure, it’s great, otherwise threshold might be a better bet (which btw you can download for free from big finish)

You do need to listen to it before S4 though because nothing is ever straightforward with Doctor Who audios

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S1 and 2 of CM are also on spotify for free I believe!

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I just listened to Manhunt and it’s an episode that, if it had been televised, I feel there would be a lot of discussion on…

Like look, I think that the twist can be read as a sort of backwards transgender allegory. Sort of. Maybe. Kinda. That you are born, you feel you are this way, but society, your parents, force you into being and accepting this other way. Like Rachel says, that must take a huge mental toll on Emma.

But I also think that I can say with a bit of certainty that this is not what Fitton had in mind. The changing from woman to man is supposed to be the scary thing. The subtext lays in the part about gender roles. And I don’t know what I feel about it. And like I don’t know, I’m not sure about the sexism part either. I have thoughts but I don’t know how to articulate them. And I don’t know if I’m the right person to articulate them. Because I am as male as Fitton (or at least, I have generally had a male experience from how society treats me) so any way of criticism both positive and negative I’m not sure will be entirely just.

Of course this is the first story in the boxset, so this whole thing isn’t yet over, so maybe I shouldn’t be so quick to judge, but I just wanted to get those thoughts out there for now.

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I’ve got a lot of thoughts on Manhunt, that I feel are brewing together as an essay in the back of my mind.

I very much agree on the transgender allegory in it, although absolutely not an intended one. But I can’t really read the story any other way. Like from author’s intent this is far more a story about the evils of unethical experimentation mixed with a commentary on misogyny in the 60s. The first part of that is pretty well done in my opinion, the second gets muddled with the transness of it it all.

Like one bit that is interesting to me is how Emma Waverly in a way wants to escape the oppression via her gender by changing it. Which is also a talking point often wielded against trans men even though it really doesn’t work that way. Being transgender doesn’t give you access to male privilege.

In general, this episode to me feels like one that could be turned into a really good trans story actually. But because it wasn’t intended, as far as I can tell wasn’t even considered in the writing of it, it’s all muddled. And it’s not something I think the writer is to blame for either. It’s a blind spot, simply put. And the episode is from 12 years ago, which isn’t super long, but definitely long enough that the situation and public awareness of trans as well as queer people in general was totally different. If this story were made today, I wouldn’t consider it acceptable.

Basically, I have a lot of complicated thoughts and feelings on this episode!

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The Split Infinitive (from Legacy of Time): I LOVES IT. Five minutes. You’re losing your touch absolutely iconic line. Great dynamic with Seven and Ace as always, everyone is in excellent form, I love it!!

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Anyone read these? From the synopses they don’t sound great tbh.

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Don’t torment @sircarolyn with a reminder about these…

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Me and @Jae are trying to track down Birds of Prey because it’s apparently impossible to find???

But yes they seem dreadful. The universe in which Ian and Rachel are happily married and have a KID is not one I want to live in :face_vomiting::face_vomiting: regardless of my opinions on the romantic status of their relationship in general, WHY would you do my girl dirty like that?? That is NOT a woman who would have a baby are you joking with me right now…

Alas I do kind of want to read them even if I hate them for completionist reasons

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We’re trying to track the second one down (I have to write an email. It can only take months now) but I’ll be getting myself the first soon. Even with the near certainty of horrible mischaracterization

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Yep that put me off. I don’t mind there being some romantic tension between them in the series, but married? I can’t see either of them being the type to settle down & have a family. Pregnancy is NOT on Rachel’s radar. Ever! & there seems to be more Allison erasure :frowning:

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Candy Jar do seem to like inventing strange familial relationships in their ranges.

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To me Ian/Rachel only works if he’s pining after her and she is oblivious to it, willingly or unwillingly. Because let’s be real, though he loves and respects her, there’s no way she’s going to be any good as a little wife and she’s going to be working all weird hours and paying more attention to science than him. And I think he really desires a little wife. And I think the tension between not wanting to force Rachel to conform and wanting her to be His Wife would just tear them apart. I honestly think it would be a disaster. This I would find interesting, but domestic bliss?? Get that out of my face.

And of course Allison is erased, she’s ‘just’ the assistant :roll_eyes::roll_eyes::roll_eyes::roll_eyes::roll_eyes::roll_eyes:

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Absolutely perfect summation.

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no thoughts only HER!! :smiling_face_with_three_hearts::smiling_face_with_three_hearts::smiling_face_with_three_hearts:

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isn’t that your avatar? I love it :star_struck:

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Yea I crudely snipped her out of this picture and I think I put her on the 4th Doctor into vortex bc it looks nice :slight_smile:

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It does look nice :smiling_face_with_three_hearts:

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Your profile pic is literally so pretty. I love it [1]


  1. I know you’ve had it pretty much the entire time but I don’t think I’ve ever said it. And it’s true ↩︎

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I have changed it occassionally… to another picture of Her :slight_smile:

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