2020 - A discussion about Covid and Doctor Who

Part of the problem with trying to reference Covid in ‘Flux’ is that is was still ongoing at the time Flux was filmed and broadcast.

If I remember rightly, Flux was filmed in early 2021 and then broadcast in Oct-Dec 2021. The rules and restrictions around what one could and couldn’t do (in the UK at least) were quite different at the start of the year than they were at the end. At the time they were filming, they obviously would have had no idea what the situation would be regarding Covid by the time it was scheduled to be broadcast. It would have looked a bit strange if the ‘present day’ parts of Flux, which were set at Halloween, had included references to the restrictions from earlier in the year which might have no longer applied. So I can see why they avoided mentioning the whole thing.

Now, looking back on the worst of Covid from some distance, I don’t have a problem with the show making some references to it. I can understand why some people would rather not be reminded of it for many different and personal reasons. It is a subject that does need to be delicately handled. I wouldn’t want a story where they reveal Covid was an alien space virus as that would be in bad taste.

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This was something I didn’t quite get - someone said something along the lines of “how dare they remind me of COVID, which was very bad for me personally, why couldn’t Joy’s Mum have cancer instead?”

Which is pretty insensitive to anyone who has been affected by a loved one having cancer.

You can’t have drama shows without any drama.

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They did. That’s the thing - they had the Daleks. Their most iconic villain was a nazi allegory. Doctor Who has always dealt with politics head-on. As a sci-fi series, Who should be an outlier. It should be dealing with this head-on.

Doctor Who has often dealt with modern political issues, which is why it was so disappointing to me that Chibnall didn’t just not deal with COVID, his series’ acted like it didn’t exist. If you look at, say, 3’s era, you get so many serials about concern around increased military control, worries around nuclear power, the environment, etc. We had the wonderful Ark in Space dealing directly with white supremacy and eugenics. We’ve had a lot of serials dealing directly with fascism. The Happiness Patrol with the Thatcher stand-in and the cottaging. And then of course there’s all the nuwho episodes dealing with fears of the rise of technology taking people’s jobs, climate change, racism, gun control, and so much more. I’d be here forever if I listed everything (and I’m sure there are people who have already analysed it all wonderfully. I know there are plenty of Who analysis books of essays out there).

My point isn’t that Chibnall should have pivoted and done something different - my point is that he had a perfect oppurtunity and decided not to use it. It felt like a massive step back.

Honestly, it is conversations like these that make me feel everybody is watching a different version of the show - that is the beauty of the show, and the curse of the fandom. To me, JTTW is about hope and rage and humanity told through the COVID lens (and that is why I liked it so much). Maybe to you, it was about something else - and I do not think either of us are wrong. It’s all up to interpretation. I am interested in the political discussions held through Doctor Who and related to media, so I tend to focus on that above all else, but you may be looking for something entirely different when you watch Who, and so be seeing that instead.

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For me during Flux’s airing I needed escapism but for JTTW enough has passed and Covid while still around isn’t as big as it was.

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I also loved the rage that Joy showed at the hypocrisy of the Tory party during COVID. I love that stuff, but I’m quite the contrarian :smile:

I love it when they stick it to the man, to the establishment :grin: to me, the Doctor is anti-establishment and anti-capitalist, everything that the Tory party isn’t!

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Apologies @ThetaSigmaEarChef because I read back my post and realised I’d completely messed up my point. Of course Doctor Who has shone a spotlight on real world issues - I never meant to deny that. It’s one of the things which annoys me when people criticise the modern show for being ‘woke’ and claiming the classic series wasn’t when it most demonstrably did highlight important themes like, as you say, the environment, facism, etc.

What I meant was that Doctor Who’s narrative ‘real world’ is slightly removed from the real world we live in. The UNIT era was deliberately supposed to be slightly in the future meaning that lots of the that ‘contemporary’ era is slightly at odds with what was actually happening in the real world.

I also meant that Doctor Who didn’t directly feature historical periods which were in living memory for a long time. There isn’t a WW2 story until the 1980s and it seems only one was ever on the cards before then - the lost story Operation Werewolf - which, tellingly, never made it to screen. The history visited in those early years is as alien as the weird planets they visit - the Aztecs, Paris of the 16th century, Ancient Rome, prehistoric times.

But I maintain that Chibnall not addressing Covid is not cowardly.

He used the show to address lots of other issues - often drawing overt criticism from some quarters because of it. Covid was like nothing we’d ever experienced before. It’s not a miner’s strike or Daleks as Nazis or environmental messaging. It was something which affected the whole world, but also affected people, oddly, in the same way and yet in very different ways.

I was lucky enough not to lose anyone but my friend lost her dad and she couldn’t visit him just like Joy. She gave birth to a daughter during that time and her dad never met his granddaughter. I don’t know what your personal experience was but there is not way Chibnall could have addressed Covid at that time without upsetting a lot of people and drawing a lot of backlash against the show. And let’s face it, Chibnall was already a punchbag for fandom as it was.

If you think he should have directly addressed Covid and was disappointed he didn’t, that’s absolutely your perogative. I completely disagree. But I do not think, whatever decision he made, makes him a coward. We don’t know what his personal experience was. He may have lost someone. It’s not for us to call him out on something like that.

And what should be noted here is that Moffat focussed his covid element - and it really was just an element and not what the whole story was about even slightly - was the partygate aspect which was something very few people would be divided in opinion on.

So I apologise for being unclear in my first post and hope this has cleared up my position a bit.

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laughs in UNIT dating controversy (/j)

Ah, okay, that does make sense - though, I would argue that nuwho definitely does deal with the present, which is what JTTW did, though admittedly even then it’s usually through analogies (looking at you, Harriet Jones and Torchwood!)

I’m sorry about your friend’s dad.

That’s exactly my point - he shouldn’t have shied away from things just because they would have drawn backlash. Though, I’m not sure that acknowledging that COVID exists and is affecting people would have been very divisive.

I admit that ‘coward’ may have been too strong a word, but I still maintain that he shouldn’t have pretended like COVID didn’t happen.

I still disagree that it was only a small part of the episode. And, I agree that partygate was pretty unifying and so JTTW really shouldn’t have caused controversy (except I suppose for the quarter of the country who voted for the tories anyway, though even then, they were voting for a different government than the one which threw parties while we were dying). But at least Moffat actually addressed COVID - my disappointment in Chibnall is in the fact that he pretended it didn’t exist at all in the main show.

Yes, I think it has, thank you.

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If the news had never mentioned Covid I would accuse them of pretending it didn’t happen. If Eastenders or Coronation Street or Hollyoaks didn’t mention Covid or weave it into their storylines I would accuse them of pretending it didn’t happen.

A science fantasy programme is under no compulsion to address or feature real world events. Doctor Who often does, but it is always secondary to the fun, adventure escapism at its core. Science Fiction has always been used as an allegorical form of fiction but it isn’t necessarily its principal aim - certainly not a family Saturday night show.

I think its fascinating, for example, that Terrance Dicks and Barry Letts in the DVD commentary for The Curse of Peladon point blank refuse to acknowledge that the story’s parallels to the UK entering the Common Market were intentional. They continually claim throughout that any similarities are coincidental and simply because that sort of thing was ‘in the air’.

I don’t think Chibnall was pretending Covid didn’t exist, just that he either chose not to include it in the programme or couldn’t think of a worthwhile story/reason for including it. As the writer/showrunner that is entirely his perogative and his choice doesn’t make him, in any way, a bad person.

When Chibnall and the show is hauled over the coals for acknowledging climate change or LGBTQ+ or any other ‘issue’, I 100% believe acknowledging Covid would have been divisive. Again, it’s not like this is a show set in the ‘real world’, People often want to watch shows like Doctor Who to escape from the real world and resent the ‘real world’ impinging on that.

I think it’s great that you enjoy the political element of Doctor Who as we all take different things from this show. It’s ability to be all things at once is one of the reasons it has lasted so long. But I think its beholden to all of us not to assume that the people making the show share the same ‘ideals’ as we do. We have to accept what we are served and take from it what we want. It’s why some people adore Heaven Sent while I get very little from it. Or why Time-Flight is lambasted by many but is a source of great enjoyment for me. I can’t expect the production team to address my own personal viewpoint because I know the next person along will have a completely different one - as I think this thread proves.

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Honestly this thread is starting to stress me out (not your fault - I just get stressed by long conversations sometimes) so I think I will bow out here, but I do just want to make my position clearer before I leave: COVID is something that so heavily affected every aspect of our lives. It’s unlike any other political issue we’ve faced. I’m not mad at Chibnall for not addressing the political ramifications of the biggest health crisis of my generation’s life, I’m upset because this is something that affected everyone watching, and I would have at least expected some characters wearing a mask when they visit the present, or a quick “Damn, go travel with an alien for a few days and you come back to a frickin’ pandemic!” line, or hell, even just a social distancing poster in the background of a shot. It felt like an alternate timeline.

At this point, I think we just have to agree to disagree!

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Just started the new BBC Audio: House of Plastic. It mentioned the pandemic at the beginning of it and how it might have made an old woman become sour after the pandemic. I think that COVID will start to be a more common thing in storytelling from now.

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I think something important that needs to be reiterated about how the Chibnall era dealt with Covid is production times. Flux was written in early 2020 and filmed from November that year to around July of 2021, that puts over a year between writing and release, and at least a few months between end of filming and release. Now given these facts, I think Chibnall had 2 options; include Covid in the story with no idea how it would evolve and impact society over the next year+, or simply not include it. If he had chosen to reference it, how was he supposed to know what exact rules and regulations would still be in place, or how important it would be to our lives in October 2021? In my opinion an innacurate portrayal of the pandemic we were facing would have been much more distracting than the desicion not to include it. Another important aspect of this, again due to production times, is that we had already gotten an entire series set in early 2020(as well as Revolution of the Daleks) without any mention of Covid. I think the heavy references to Covid in Joy to the World were great, but they also had the benefit of hindsight and a complete picture of the pandemic. All this being said, I completely understand why Chibnall’s desicion to not include Covid is extremely frustrating for some.

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I was super happy that Chibnall didn’t include or allude to COVID during Flux and the three following specials.
There is something to be said about media sometimes just being escapist fun and not always mirroring reality.
I had enough of that pandemic in real life, so I absolutely didn’t also need it on the TV at that time as well. (Apart from “Staged”, that was brilliant :grin: As was all the Lockdown Who content :+1:)

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Me too - I think at the time, not saying anything was a fine option and indeed the one I preferred, but now ignoring it completely does feel a little like pretending it never happened

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I suspect if Chibnall had decided to tackle Covid at the time that the best way to deal with it would have been the traditional Doctor Who way of fictionalising it. This is an alien planet, this is a totally different pandemic, we have totally different leaders dealing with it badly, etc…

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Totally agree with this.
I think Joy’s little speech and her goodbye to her mother over iPad was really well done :+1:

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I totally agree and almost included that exact sentiment in my post! Similar to how Curse of Peladon covered modern events(at least from my limited understanding of British history/politics), I think the best way to do this is to fictionalize them so the ever-changing details aren’t important. This way you also don’t have to reopen extremely recent trauma people have, but can still broadly discuss the events and even speculate on the future without being insensitive.

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Exactly. With the Happiness Patrol, you don’t need to know about Margaret Thatcher at all to enjoy the serial, but if you do, it’s an additional layer on things, and it’s a quite enjoyable serial with interesting themes regardless.

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Staged (Season 1) and Inside feel like two sides of the same coin to me in terms of being pandemic content

Both comedies that use the fact they were recorded during lockdown to their advantage, both perfectly capturing the feeling of lockdown, but both capturing completely different parts of it.

The thesis of Staged is all about joy and humanity, in coming together and that sense that we’re all dealing with this awful shit together.

And then Inside is a look into the loneliness and isolation that I think we all felt during that time. Sure we were all in it together, but we’re still all separated. The monologue before Turning Thirty, or the quiet sadness of That Funny Feeling just kill me every time in the same way that the ending of Staged has me cheering.

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Have not seen that. One show that I think did a good job with Covid was Superstore. It is a sit com about a big store and it deals with what happened to the workers in a good way.

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I haven’t seen that one, but I can see how that would be a good premise for a show :+1:

I’ve made myself want to see “Staged” again now :grin: David Tennant and Michael Sheen are absolutely hilarious in that.

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