Ok gang, this is getting interesting.
Just a heads up, I havent been keeping track of my likes so I will catch up when I am freed up.
First up, I had trouble with Clara’s attitude too. It took Vestra in Deep Breath to remind Clara that The Doctor has lived 1,000 years and has many faces, and personalities and I think that the rules in time traveling apply to her since she was in his time stream that she may not remember any future doctors she hadnt met. It could be a metaphor for the aging process. Would you still love me when I am old and gray. Vestra even touched on why would she feel different with how he looked if he were the same man.
Secondly, I agree with @shauny that he is Autistic and I agree. If this was reincarnation instead of regeneration would we still have this same convo. I believe Timelords simply remember their past lives where we dont.
I love Twelve and he especially works for me in s10. I’ve come to appreciate s8-9 more over the years but there are a bunch of dud episodes in there for me. However something about the way Twelve cares so much and yet is bad at empathy and expressing that chimes with me so much. I like that he’s not very human, and I think he and Bill are one of the greatest Doctor&Companion pairs ever
I think the Doctor in all incarnations tends to have very autistic-coded traits, though I think that these are often unintentional and coming from trying to make them seem weird/awkward/alien, which is sort of a symptom of a bigger dehumanization of autistic people, but it’s still an element of the character that I absolutely love seeing. And I do think 12 is one of the “most” autistic incarnations (that’s not really the phrasing I want to use there because that’s not how autism works, but it’s what’s coming to my mind and I’m hoping that people get what I mean well enough) with the note cards scene in Under the Lake being a particular scene that always really stands out to me as autistic-coded and is a real favorite of mine.
I see that she doesn’t remember much, but she remembers something. To me it was just always weird that these things happen within the span so few episodes. (Maybe I would have felt different if had to wait between the episodes and hadn’t watched them all in one go.
The second part I didn’t consider, that’s a very good point. There is probably a big difference between seeing the Doctor had other forms in the past and him actually changing irreversibly.
It’s interesting to how much 12 and 6 are similar. There change overs were chaotic. Six tried killing Peri twice. And not many people would forgive that. But Peri was a much different character than Clara and Peri’s relationship with 5 was platonic
With that said, it must have been a huge shock all the way around.
I love Twelve. He wasn’t the first Doctor I watched, but he was the first I liked. Pretty much everything I like about Six is what I love in Twelve. Give me all the grumpy, arrogant, pompous characters who are actually extremely kind once you get to know them. The only thing I didn’t care for was his (and Clara’s) treatment of Danny Pink.
And I concur with others here. He’s definitely one of the Autistic Doctors (another thumbs up from me).
12 is my favorite Doctor. He seems grumpy/rude but he’s kind towards people that are close to him. His arc is great across his era and he works really well with Clara.
His hate towards soldiers is understandable. He doesn’t like violence and guns and he shows his dislike towards other soldiers in previous series. Danny was a bit rude towards the Doctor when he first met him.
12 is one of my favourite Doctors, and I think Capaldi plays him fantastically. I absolutely adore his growth and character arc from a grumpy git to a loving, caring rockstar grandpa who teaches Bill about the universe.
That being said, I agree entirely with Delta about the soldier stuff - especially with how on the nose it is with no subtlety, and how incredibly cruel he is to Danny. I also feel like in series 8 - a series I generally love btw - he’s often just mean spirited and kinda cruel to Clara and it’s always just played for laughs, which makes me uncomfortable.
But when the performance is this strong, the era’s character arc for him is so amazing, and I love the majority of the episodes to some degree it’s hard for me to have my issues with specifically only one series’ characterisation of him to ruin him for me.
Delta most definitely has a point with the inconsistency of the Doctor’s soldier hate, however it wasn’t so much an obstacle for me I have to say. Mainly because things change with each incarnation. If one is wired slightly differently then I think it would give a different perspective on certain issues.
Therefore the Tenth Doctor liking Ross (I think that was his name) rather than dismissing him out of hand because he’s a soldier wouldn’t necessarily mean to me that the Twelfth wouldn’t dislike soldiers for the fact they are soldiers.
Yes it’s a bit jarring and I’m not saying at all that it means any criticism of it is flimsy because it isn’t, if it stops you liking the Twelfth Doctor then it’s absolutely an obstacle and it’s one I can sympathise with.
I do like the Twelfth Doctor very much and I think Capaldi is excellent, quite possibly the best actor to actually play the role (even if the incarnation itself isn’t in my top top TOP tier of Doctors), in that I feel his journey from start to finish of his era is the most interesting and, if there can be such a thing, complete.
I also like how he is not always shown to win these arguments with Danny and is portrayed as quite fallible. Losing some standing by having Danny point out some genuine flaws in the Doctor’s logic when it comes to soldiers helps an awful lot I think.
I really like the Twelfth Doctor but he’s only really upper mid tier out of all Doctors for me and I really need to explore why. I think when it comes to favourite Doctors there’s idiosyncracies and biases we rarely admit to (a lot of the reasons can simply be ‘just cos’) and when I actually analyse it I can clearly see Peter Capaldi is exceptional and the Twelfth Doctor is flawed and interesting and one of the more complex incarnations.
I think, for me, it’s the aggressiveness that the soldier-hate is played with and I think it’s overplayed in that first half of Series 8. Yes, absolutely, the Doctor rails against the military mindset and violence and guns etc all through the series (except when he doesn’t, of course…) so it’s not the fact that 12 doesn’t like soldiers but the way he doesn’t like soldiers that jars with me.
I always thought the blatant soldier hate was meant to highlight the Doctor’s hypocrisy. He’s very much a man of war himself, as Danny points out often enough, and he’s trying to deflect that by telling himself how much he dislikes soldiers. It’s not really a characterization that I like very much because it makes the Doctor feel a bit childish in not a good way, but he’s always been an idiot with the worst coping mechanics out there so eh. And I also think Moffat meant it more as a reflection of how the Doctor is generally very hypocritical but we the viewers can turn a blind eye to that until now that we can’t or something more nuanced along those lines.
Not that I can say that it’s my favorite part of Series 8. Plus I don’t like Danny. Think he’s a really boring character.
Yeah I honestly think the issue for me isn’t the hatred, it’s how very on the nose and upfront it is without any nuance or subtlety, and as you say it’s overplayed.
Really, the first time they met, both the Doctor and Lethbridge-Stewart were in danger from the Abominable Snowmen, and he was asking the Doctor what to do and taking his suggestions and working with him. And he did also just happen to look exactly like someone the Doctor had previously failed to save.
Second time, Zoe was missing, and he needed the Brig’s help to save her. Hardly the time to be arguing with him. Besides, by that point they knew each other.
Third time… he tried to take off and not help the Brig.
Come the Silurians, and now he’s rather upset with the Brig. By this point, he’s stuck on Earth and somewhat has to put up with him, though. And, of course, in Inferno, he sees a far worse version of the Brig, perhaps reminding him of how much better his was in comparison…
Twelve. Twelve, Twelve, Twelve. Oh dear…where to begin!
When Capaldi was first announced I was so enthusiastic, a brilliant actor. & then Deep Breath happened. I never really recovered, really disliked the episode & the dynamic between Clara & 12. The early reluctance was jarring. It seemed more aimed at second guessing audiences who may be put off by an older actor in the role. They even mentioned the fact that he was older, & had a cameo from 11! Of all companions Clara should be the one with the least issues when the Doctor changes. It all felt like a lack of confidence in this Doctor from Moffat. Not a good start.
I think I felt Clara’s time was done when 11 regenerated & the dynamic between her & 12 I found so off putting. When you dislike the Doctor & his companion there’s little else to get invested in. Certainly the stories of this era felt like Moffat regurgitating old ideas, & god 12 was so unlikeable & his character so badly written, such a lack of consistency that even an actor like Capaldi couldn’t win me over. Was he the embarrassing dad playing guitar wearing sunglasses? Was he the soldier hating curmudgeon? Was he the ‘just be kind’ figure? Who knows! He was all over the place, such an incoherent version of the Doctor I couldn’t engage with or really care about. At times I thought he was just unnecessarily nasty & this coupled with some truly dreadful stories means this era is never going to be one I warm to. I have rewatched it once, & my opinion hasn’t really changed.
I do think he is better when Bill Potts arrives, their dynamic is more entertaining & he has some good moments but overall I just don’t like him. & then there are the endless speeches, going on & on & on. Most annoyingly the one just before he regenerates, half the time I’m thinking just get on with it, the other half I’m going, hang on a minute, you sound like a bit of a hypocrite here.
So sadly 12 is a Doctor I have no interest in returning to. But of course over the decades there have been plenty of Doctors I do love, & probably new ones I have yet to meet that may become my favourites.
100%. There’s lot of self-hatred in there as well, I think. Which is weird, because hasn’t he just learned that he did not, in fact, kill everyone during the Time War? Plus some… complicated Clara-related feelings? As in, he thinking something along the lines of “how can Clara be in love with this soldier man, who I see as the worst bits of myself? Why is she not in love with the other guy (that sweet Eleven lookalike teacher guy), the one that has the best/kindest bits of myself?”
